[nfitz]

The service may be scheduled at 5.5 minutes, but I can tell you that I frequently experience 7 minute wait times, especially on Line 2, late at night on weekends.

Of course. But then the next train comes in 4 minutes.

Do you think an every 15-minute service would be any different? It's not when I'm in other city's waiting for the 15-minute service. I'm sure 20-minute waits wouldn't be unusual.

 

[nfitz]

Here's a hypothetical trip from UTSC to Dundas Station, the most used Station on Line 1 south of Line 2. I'm assuming 5 minute transfer times to RER and 2.5 minutes to LRT/subway.

I haven't gone through these estimates closely, but

1) how is transfer from Union GO Station to Union subway station in 2.5 minutes? Last time I tried to transfer, I was near the Bay West teamway, and I was about 8 minutes from the GO platform to the subway platform. It's very busy at rush hour, you can't even walk fast. And then I still had to wait for a subway train. And that was from the the top of the stairs, not including the time to get off the GO train, doors to open, etc. And I wasn't even on the southerly outdoor platforms the Lakeshore East line often arrives on!

2) 5 minutes to transfer to RER? Average wait time would be 7.5 minutes. And surely another couple of minutes to transfer (though I'm not too familiar with walking distance at Guildwood.

3) TTC's scheduled time from Bloor to Dundas is 3 minutes, not 4 minutes. Dundas is 3 stations south of Bloor and 3 stations north of Union. Distances are similar. Should use same time.

UTSC to Dundas Station via Lakeshore East RER can be achieved pretty much right now with a good meet of the 198 bus and the Lakeshore GO service. Which means that if it is only 45.5 minutes, I should be able to get something close to that right now with Google Maps - https://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=4...exp=0&noal=0&sort=def&mra=ls&t=m&z=12&start=0

I've tried consistently at several times of day, and the best I can get is 55 minutes - unless you catch the VIA train from Guildwood to Union! Then you can do it in about 44 minutes. But I don't think we are envisioning the Lakeshore RER running non-stop at 150 km/hr.

 

[mdrejhon]

But I don't think we are envisioning the Lakeshore RER running non-stop at 150 km/hr.

Electricified, the Lakeshore express trains easily could.

I was on a 128kph Lakeshore West GOTrain, when it was running express beyond Exhibiton, just before approaching the curve, and then still entered the Etobicoke curve at near that speed. It was running slightly late, and 128kph is mentioned in several Metrolinx documents as the maximum actual operating GOTrain speed.

I ran a GPS speedometer app on my tablet, and confirmed an accurate 128kph for an incoming express GOTrain somewhere between Oakville and Union. We were overtaking the full-speed 120kph cars on the 403 just before Gardiner, before the curve leading to Exhibition. Obviously, it does not sustain this speed, but it certainly feels that this section of rail (and the curve itself) can easily handle 150kph when electricified. The Etobicoke curve is the most curved section of Lakeshore West yet it still smoothly takes 120kph+ before the trains begins slowing down. While the Lakeshore tracks are pretty rough near the at-grade sections, other sections wouldn't have problems at 150kph+ after RER tweaking.

I wouldn't be surprised if the express version of GO RER can be made to be able to run at ~160-180kph along the better track on Lakeshore. Some sections, especially near the grade passings, and some sections are very jiggly, but the ride was super-smooth at 128kph so sections can clearly can sustain more.

Track capacity and grade separation would be the limiting factor, but if GO RER solve those during track upgrades -- 160kph+ Lakeshore nonstop express GOTrains is doable within 10 years, right out of the gate. Assuming residents along the line don't complain about noise, though 160kph electric on GO RER lines may be quieter than 128kph diesel.

 

[Rainforest]

D. UTSC to Dundas Station via Bus, Line 3 continuous to Line 1 (assuming Eglinton elevated instead of B-D extension)
1 - TTC Bus to Centennial Station: 13 minutes (+5' transfer)
2 - Centennial Station to Yonge-Eg Station: 34 min (35 km/h) (+3' transfer)
3 - Bloor-Yonge Station to Dundas Station: 4 min
Total: 59 min
[/LIST]

It looks like you forgot the travel time between the Yonge-Eg Station and the Bloor-Yonge Station; about 8 min.

That drives the total to 67 min.

 

[BurlOak]

It looks like you forgot the travel time between the Yonge-Eg Station and the Bloor-Yonge Station; about 8 min.

That drives the total to 67 min.

oops - you're right.

Maybe some of the savings from the elevated vs Line 2 extension could be used to extend the line to UTSC. That would save about 12 minutes (knock of 18 minutes and add 6). But still, integrated GO fares is best for this route.

 

[BurlOak]

UTSC to Dundas Station via SMLRT, Line 2 (assuming full build out of Transit City)
1 - SMLRT to Kennedy: 24 minutes (28 km/h) (+3' transfer)
2 - Kennedy Station to Bloor-Yonge Station: 22 minutes (+3' transfer)
3 - Bloor-Yonge Station to Dundas Station: 4 min
Total: 56 min

Interesting, even with the full Transit City network built, it would not be fastest (53 minutes was the Lakeshore East time). Maybe that's why there was such opposition to Transit City.

 

[smallspy]

Electricified, the Lakeshore express trains easily could.

Dieselized, the trains currently do. And not necessarily on expresses either.

I was on a 128kph Lakeshore West GOTrain, when it was running express beyond Exhibiton, just before approaching the curve, and then still entered the Etobicoke curve at near that speed. It was running slightly late, and 128kph is mentioned in several Metrolinx documents as the maximum actual operating GOTrain speed.

Show me those documents, 'cause I'm calling bullshit. Trains regularly get up to their maximum capable speed - 93mph (150km/h) on the MP40s, 83mph (134km/h) on the F59s - on expresses today, and even in a couple of places when running on locals where the track allows them to.

I ran a GPS speedometer app on my tablet, and confirmed an accurate 128kph for an incoming express GOTrain somewhere between Oakville and Union. We were overtaking the full-speed 120kph cars on the 403 just before Gardiner, before the curve leading to Exhibition. Obviously, it does not sustain this speed, but it certainly feels that this section of rail (and the curve itself) can easily handle 150kph when electricified. The Etobicoke curve is the most curved section of Lakeshore West yet it still smoothly takes 120kph+ before the trains begins slowing down. While the Lakeshore tracks are pretty rough near the at-grade sections, other sections wouldn't have problems at 150kph+ after RER tweaking.

There is a reason why the trains are "only" doing 80mph through there - because that is the speed limit through that section. The geometry of the track is such that it can't be made to go any faster, and RER isn't going to help that.

For the record, the speed limit for passenger trains from mile 6.5 to 36.4 - immediately east of the platforms at Mimico to the plant at Snake, west of Aldershot Station - is 95mph, with some localized PSOs (Permanent Slow Orders) at various locations due to bridges or track geometry.

I wouldn't be surprised if the express version of GO RER can be made to be able to run at ~160-180kph along the better track on Lakeshore. Some sections, especially near the grade passings, and some sections are very jiggly, but the ride was super-smooth at 128kph so sections can clearly can sustain more.

That would be dependent on (a) the equipment being capable of reaching those speeds, and (b) the speed limits being increased to be higher. And considering that there is no track rated for higher than 100mph right now, nor has there ever been, you're living in a dreamworld if you think that the trains will be running at 180km/h (112mph).

Keep in mind too, that higher top speeds have a direct (and negative) correlation on acceleration at lower speeds. The subway can easily achieve 50 to 60km/h in the small gaps between stations downtown because the equipment is rated for a top speed of less than 90km/h.

Track capacity and grade separation would be the limiting factor, but if GO RER solve those during track upgrades -- 160kph+ Lakeshore nonstop express GOTrains is doable within 10 years, right out of the gate. Assuming residents along the line don't complain about noise, though 160kph electric on GO RER lines may be quieter than 128kph diesel.

No it isn't, and precisely for the reasons I've laid out above.

And as for noise....ha. No. Not even close. If you had said the localized noise from acceleration from a station stop, I'd agree. But at those speeds, the aerodynamic and rolling resistance noise (not to mention the noise of the pantograph on the wire) dominates the noise generated by the power plant of the diesel locomotive.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I haven't gone through these estimates closely, but

1) how is transfer from Union GO Station to Union subway station in 2.5 minutes? Last time I tried to transfer, I was near the Bay West teamway, and I was about 8 minutes from the GO platform to the subway platform. It's very busy at rush hour, you can't even walk fast. And then I still had to wait for a subway train. And that was from the the top of the stairs, not including the time to get off the GO train, doors to open, etc. And I wasn't even on the southerly outdoor platforms the Lakeshore East line often arrives on!

2) 5 minutes to transfer to RER? Average wait time would be 7.5 minutes. And surely another couple of minutes to transfer (though I'm not too familiar with walking distance at Guildwood.

3) TTC's scheduled time from Bloor to Dundas is 3 minutes, not 4 minutes. Dundas is 3 stations south of Bloor and 3 stations north of Union. Distances are similar. Should use same time.

UTSC to Dundas Station via Lakeshore East RER can be achieved pretty much right now with a good meet of the 198 bus and the Lakeshore GO service. Which means that if it is only 45.5 minutes, I should be able to get something close to that right now with Google Maps - https://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=4...exp=0&noal=0&sort=def&mra=ls&t=m&z=12&start=0

I've tried consistently at several times of day, and the best I can get is 55 minutes - unless you catch the VIA train from Guildwood to Union! Then you can do it in about 44 minutes. But I don't think we are envisioning the Lakeshore RER running non-stop at 150 km/hr.

The reason you're getting longer times on Google is because they're factoring in waiting time and I beleive the time waiting for the first bus. I was aware of this when i posted my comment.

 

[nfitz]

The reason you're getting longer times on Google is because they're factoring in waiting time and I beleive the time waiting for the first bus. I was aware of this when i posted my comment.

I'm not sure how you plan to eliminating to eliminate waiting times on a once every 15-minute service. Sure, it's only once every 30-minutes now, but you'd think then I'd get some values approaching your estimate - just not as many.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My bad. I meant to say I didn't include waiting times for the first vehicle (a bus in this case). The timer begins once the first vehchoe begins. If I were to include the wait time for the first vehcile, wait times would range anywhere from 0 seconds to 13.8 billion years, depending on when the individual leaves their starting point. Also, mid that for one of the routes, Google will not give oto u the fastest route, adding a significant amount of time into your trip.

 

[nfitz]

My bad. I meant to say I didn't include waiting times for the first vehicle (a bus in this case). The timer begins once the first vehchoe begins. If I were to include the wait time for the first vehcile, wait times would range anywhere from 0 seconds to 13.8 billion years, depending on when the individual leaves their starting point.

Google estimates don't include wait times for the first vehicle either.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Google includes walking time to the vehcile. I do not. I started timing once in board the vehcile.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also mind that for one of the GO routes, Google does not give the fastest route, adding significantly onto trip times.

 

[nfitz]

Google includes walking time to the vehcile. I do not. I started timing once in board the vehcile.

Only if you start your trip where there isn't a stop. If you check the link I used, I didn't do that. And yet I'm still almost 10 minutes in the best case than you claim.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I haven't gone through these estimates closely, but

1) how is transfer from Union GO Station to Union subway station in 2.5 minutes? Last time I tried to transfer, I was near the Bay West teamway, and I was about 8 minutes from the GO platform to the subway platform. It's very busy at rush hour, you can't even walk fast. And then I still had to wait for a subway train. And that was from the the top of the stairs, not including the time to get off the GO train, doors to open, etc. And I wasn't even on the southerly outdoor platforms the Lakeshore East line often arrives on!

2) 5 minutes to transfer to RER? Average wait time would be 7.5 minutes. And surely another couple of minutes to transfer (though I'm not too familiar with walking distance at Guildwood.

3) TTC's scheduled time from Bloor to Dundas is 3 minutes, not 4 minutes. Dundas is 3 stations south of Bloor and 3 stations north of Union. Distances are similar. Should use same time.

UTSC to Dundas Station via Lakeshore East RER can be achieved pretty much right now with a good meet of the 198 bus and the Lakeshore GO service. Which means that if it is only 45.5 minutes, I should be able to get something close to that right now with Google Maps - https://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=4...exp=0&noal=0&sort=def&mra=ls&t=m&z=12&start=0

I've tried consistently at several times of day, and the best I can get is 55 minutes - unless you catch the VIA train from Guildwood to Union! Then you can do it in about 44 minutes. But I don't think we are envisioning the Lakeshore RER running non-stop at 150 km/hr.

How did take you 8 minutes to walk from the GO platform to the TTC? This is a video of me making the transfer in less than 3 minutes. This was during the peak of rush hour and I had no idea where I was going (I don't use Union very often):

[video=youtube_share;EnuUrAkMvKM]http://youtu.be/EnuUrAkMvKM[/video]