[Rainforest]

Then the province will jack Scarborough up. That's not a fight they want to engage in because they'll lose and it will be ugly.

Not a slightest chance. The province will not overwrite the City Council's vote and impose local taxes that are in the municipal jurisdiction. That never happens.

Of course, the province may grant money to Toronto, and it may impose provincial transit taxes. Scarborough has very little say in that matter. But the funds raised that way will belong to the province and will be split between multiple municipalities.

Plus if SmartTrack goes through, Scarborough will have something much better then the subway.

That's debatable, and depends on the frequency of SmartTrack.

 

[Rainforest]

I see a SmartTrack centred plan being a branch north of Ellesmere that serves STC. If STC (and maybe Centennial and Malvern) are served by SmartTrack, then the subway is not needed in that area.

That frequency is not written in stone. Tory has a 7 year timeline for SmartTrack, whereas the subway is still a decade or more away. A 15 minute frequency on each branch within the 7 year time would fulfil his promise. This could be increased to 7.5 minutes thereafter.

The frequency is not written in stone; but it is limited by the track capacity at Union, and the need to share that track capacity with multiple other services.

A 15 minute frequency on each branch may just barely satisfy the demand from STC. With each train's capacity being 2,000 riders, that translates to 8,000 pphpd. However, if the EMU trains are smaller, and carry only 1,500 or 1,200 riders per train, then a 15-min frequency will not be sufficient.

Meanwhile, even a 15-min frequency on each branch translates to a combined 7.5 min. Squeezing so many trains through Union, in competition with other services, will not be easy.

A 7.5 min frequency on each branch cannot be achieved with a surface RER / SmartTrack. That can only happen if a downtown rail tunnel is built.

 

[rbt]

Meanwhile, even a 15-min frequency on each branch translates to a combined 7.5 min. Squeezing so many trains through Union, in competition with other services, will not be easy.

A 7.5 min frequency on each branch cannot be achieved with a surface RER / SmartTrack. That can only happen if a downtown rail tunnel is built.

Not impossible. A dedicated and fully grade separated pair of tracks greatly improves the situation. An underpass/overpass in a couple key locations may be required to achieve it.

Using a shorter train length also makes it significantly easier to merge services on a single track. Given the cost of a tunnel, ATO might even be an affordable option so trains approach merge-points at an optimal speed.

All that said, I'm a fan of a GO tunnel north of Union. Once South Core is full, this might encourage creation of a North Core closer to Dundas.

 

[Palma]

When are the ST study expected to be competed? And when do we expect the next vote on Scarborough Subway?

Another vote on the Scarborough subway? When will this madness end?

 

[gweed123]

The frequency is not written in stone; but it is limited by the track capacity at Union, and the need to share that track capacity with multiple other services.

A 15 minute frequency on each branch may just barely satisfy the demand from STC. With each train's capacity being 2,000 riders, that translates to 8,000 pphpd. However, if the EMU trains are smaller, and carry only 1,500 or 1,200 riders per train, then a 15-min frequency will not be sufficient.

Meanwhile, even a 15-min frequency on each branch translates to a combined 7.5 min. Squeezing so many trains through Union, in competition with other services, will not be easy.

A 7.5 min frequency on each branch cannot be achieved with a surface RER / SmartTrack. That can only happen if a downtown rail tunnel is built.

You're right regarding the downtown tunnel. That is why I think that the DRL will be rolled into the SmartTrack plan as well. In the interim though, you can run 30 min frequencies on the outer portions of the lines (serving most of the 905), and 15 min frequencies on the SmartTrack lines that primarily serve the 416. All of these lines run into Union for the time being. Once the Central Tunnel opens, you divert SmartTrack trains through it, and boost frequencies on the 905 routes bound for Union.

15 minute service to most of the 905 is overkill IMO, because the local transit infrastructure isn't in place yet to handle the ridership that will be necessary in order to make that service boost come even close to profitable. Parking alone can't handle the influx of new ridership that would be required. The Central Tunnel construction period and the capacity issues at Union would be a good excuse to delay further frequency boosts until local transit has enough time to catch up. In the 416 that isn't an issue, because transit ridership is already pretty high.

As for what a "SmartTrack based plan" looks like, I see it as a SmartTrack line and a GO RER line branching off the Stouffville corridor where the current SRT turns. The guideway would be replaced to handle GO RER trains. The SmartTrack service would terminate at STC, while the GO RER service would continue along the SRT extension corridor to Malvern, and potentially on to Seaton. Same or lower cost compared to the SLRT plan, eliminates the forced transfer at Kennedy, and allows for a much faster route downtown than either the subway or LRT options.

 

[WislaHD]

Wow, wouldn't that be the perfect solution? SmartTrack on Stouffvile corridor veering off to Scarborough Town Centre? Hell do one better and terminate Smartrack at Malvern, with an interim stop at Centennial College. No need for either subway or LRT.

 

[Duck]

Sounds good - and then the rt can stay, too!

 

[BurlOak]

Sounds good - and then the rt can stay, too!

You want SmartTrack over and SRT under, or do you want them beside each other? Just so you can keep the Midland station.

Of course, you are joking, but I think gweed123's plan is the best out there.

 

[BurlOak]

You're right regarding the downtown tunnel. That is why I think that the DRL will be rolled into the SmartTrack plan as well.

I think that you get it. Without a grade-separated ECLRT, the conventional subway DRL is dead because there is not the ridersip to justify the top part. Politics also dictates that the solution must involve GO because people using GO live in the swing ridings so they will get the attention.

 

[Duck]

I'm not joking at all - I like the rt and I think it's stupid that Toronto is going to rip out an existing piece of decent transit infrastructure instead of giving it some TLC. Look at Vancouver - their MK I ICTS trains run just fine, and they're refurbishing them.

 

[gweed123]

Wow, wouldn't that be the perfect solution? SmartTrack on Stouffvile corridor veering off to Scarborough Town Centre? Hell do one better and terminate Smartrack at Malvern, with an interim stop at Centennial College. No need for either subway or LRT.

Yup. The stations that I would have along the line would be Scarborough Centre, Centennial, Sheppard East, Malvern, with an optional extension with stations at Altona and Seaton. This would help create some TOD in the Seaton neighbourhood, as well as reduce pressure on Pickering and Ajax GO stations.

Once the SRT is ripped up, you can 4-track that section of the Stouffville line, and have SmartTrack stop at Ellesmere and Lawrence East (the current SRT stations), while the full length GO RER services run express past those stations.

 

[wopchop]

How would the train get from Centennial College to Malvern? Is it running in a ROW along Markham road? Ripping through Woburn Park and then tunneled under the 401?

 

[gweed123]

I think that you get it. Without a grade-separated ECLRT, the conventional subway DRL is dead because there is not the ridersip to justify the top part. Politics also dictates that the solution must involve GO because people using GO live in the swing ridings so they will get the attention.

Exactly. In order for the DRL to be extended beyond the minimum "downtown to Danforth", it needs to serve some sort of regional purpose, otherwise it's really hard to justify to 905ers and suburban 416ers the massive cost associated with it. But if the line is a re-routing of an existing GO route or two (Richmond Hill in this particular case), and would allow pretty substantial service boosts on all other GO lines (see my earlier posts about phasing for boosting 905 service), it would be much more justified from a regional perspective.

It would still provide the same benefits to the 'traditional' DRL area as the subway version, with stations being located in pretty much the same places, but it would have a strong regional component as well.

 

[gweed123]

How would the train get from Centennial College to Malvern? Is it running in a ROW along Markham road? Ripping through Woburn Park and then tunneled under the 401?

Using the same alignment that was proposed in the SRT extension and SLRT options.

 

[salsa]

Wow, wouldn't that be the perfect solution? SmartTrack on Stouffvile corridor veering off to Scarborough Town Centre? Hell do one better and terminate Smartrack at Malvern, with an interim stop at Centennial College. No need for either subway or LRT.

It's easy to draw lines on a map, but it seems like none of you have considered the technical issues.

Steve Munro: The TTC has already indicated that no matter what runs along the SRT corridor (if anything), the elevated structure must be rebuilt. At a minimum, the stations will require major changes because of platform heights and vehicle widths. It is likely that two SmartTrack trains would not physically fit beside each other in the existing stations. There is also the question of curves and the grade up to the elevated from the rail corridor at Ellesmere to Midland Station. This is probably too demanding for the equipment that SmartTrack will use. Such a junction would also require grade separation given the likely headways.