[JayBeeGooner]

SSE is not justified because:
1. It has very low usage
2. They're are more fiscally conservative, workable options

Given that ridership on SSE is so low, intensification is important.

It's for the same reasons that TYSSE, Line 4, Eglinton West Line and, up until recently, Yonge North and DRL have not been justified

Doesn't help the TTC is planning to turn back every other EB train at Kennedy.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/ia/bgrd/backgroundfile-76215.pdf

This line isn't justified considering the cancelled LRT would've served more residents.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It is sad to see that transit observers, many self-styled "progressives", declare a subway "not justified" because it will not result in much intensification along the route. Apparently, they think that convenience of the existing transit riders does not matter, and are only willing to serve future residents.

Convinience for who exactly? The design of SSE ignores 50% of the trips Scarborough residents make, to cater to the tiny minority of trips by Scarborough residents (~20%) who are going downtown, or elsewhere along Line 2.

 

[Cobra]

Convinience for who exactly? The design of SSE ignores 50% of the trips Scarborough residents make, to cater to the tiny minority of trips by Scarborough residents (~20%) who are going downtown, or elsewhere along Line 2.

The subway will attract 5 extra million riders versus the LRT, granted that their travel time to access it will be greater...

McCowan road has lots of development potential and will further attract business and entertainment sector businesses. With a Yonge line that won't be relieved for at least another decade, why not make STC a true transit/employment where people in Scarborough could gravitate around instead of flocking the buses to the Yonge line, Eglinton Crosstown to further cripple the Yonge Line.

 

[rbt]

The subway will attract 5 extra million riders versus the LRT, granted that their travel time to access it will be greater...

Attract 5 million extra rides or trips, it's about 8000 actual people commuting daily.

Toronto's contribution is $950,000,000, or $118,750 per person upfront and some extra unknown amount every year (capital renewal and operations subsidy; likely around $1,500/year). I'm pretty sure those 8000 people would rather have the cash.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The subway will attract 5 extra million riders versus the LRT, granted that their travel time to access it will be greater...

McCowan road has lots of development potential and will further attract business and entertainment sector businesses. With a Yonge line that won't be relieved for at least another decade, why not make STC a true transit/employment where people in Scarborough could gravitate around instead of flocking the buses to the Yonge line, Eglinton Crosstown to further cripple the Yonge Line.

If you read the paper that came out a few weeks ago, you'd know that the SSE results in very little land that will be eligible for redevelopment and intensification. If your goal is to promote intensification, the the SLRT is clearly the superior choice.

And I don't know why you seem to think Scarborough residents are flocking to Yonge. As the data shows, it's a very small minority of trips originating in Scarborough that are traveling west to Yonge. 50% of trips that start in Scarborough also end in Scarborough, and this subway does nothing to serve them

 

[44 North]

If you read the paper that came out a few weeks ago, you'd know that the SSE results in very little land that will be eligible for redevelopment and intensification. If your goal is to promote intensification, the the SLRT is clearly the superior choice.

Although I still haven't gotten around to reading the U of T paper you linked to, this is my presumption as well. Much of the subway route along McCowan is a wooden fence hiding the backyards of detached houses fronting on winding residential streets. This would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to develop.

 

[gweed123]

Anyway, John Tory will not cancel Scarborough Subway, because the original SLRT plan might conflict with his SmartTrack plan.

While the subway plan might compete with SmartTrack for riders, the SLRT plan will compete with SmartTrack for space n the Uxbridge sub corridor. John Tory can't know in advance if there is enough space for both; some engineering studies are needed to decide that.

Thus, if he cancelled Scarborough Subway, he would have to either take a risk that there isn't enough space; or, come up with a third plan. The latter would surely invite another set of political battles, no matter what that plan might be.

It is not a surprise at all that Tory prefers to retain all 3 major transit projects he inherited (Scarborough Subway, Finch LRT, and Sheppard LRT).

I'm still holding out hope that the Scarborough LRT ROW will be rolled into a branch of SmartTrack. That way it simply becomes a (Surface) Scarborough Subway. Tory saves face by not reverting back to LRT. The City frees up the dedicated tax revenue from the Scarborough Subway to divert to other transit projects (potentially even SmartTrack). LRT proponents get an RT line within the same budget as the LRT, with similar coverage. Subway proponents get the forced transfer at Kennedy removed, and a direct route to downtown.

 

[jcam]

I'm still holding out hope that the Scarborough LRT ROW will be rolled into a branch of SmartTrack. That way it simply becomes a (Surface) Scarborough Subway. Tory saves face by not reverting back to LRT. The City frees up the dedicated tax revenue from the Scarborough Subway to divert to other transit projects (potentially even SmartTrack). LRT proponents get an RT line within the same budget as the LRT, with similar coverage. Subway proponents get the forced transfer at Kennedy removed, and a direct route to downtown.

Sounds good to me, and then the Malvern LRT can be a through-run of Eglinton Crosstown. Could argue that eventually SmartTrack is extended above ground to Centennial and rejoin the Locust Hill line.

Councillor Mary Fragedakis shows this graphic on her website that basically suggests just that. Seems to be taken from the group Transport Action Ontario.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm still holding out hope that the Scarborough LRT ROW will be rolled into a branch of SmartTrack. That way it simply becomes a (Surface) Scarborough Subway. Tory saves face by not reverting back to LRT. The City frees up the dedicated tax revenue from the Scarborough Subway to divert to other transit projects (potentially even SmartTrack). LRT proponents get an RT line within the same budget as the LRT, with similar coverage. Subway proponents get the forced transfer at Kennedy removed, and a direct route to downtown.

I think the LRT rail corridor can easily handle a SmartTrack branch to Agincourt, and one to STC, and GO RER. The problem is south of Kennedy to Lakeshore Line, and Lakeshore line towards downtown.

What train frequency would be needed on the STC branch and the Agincourt branch. How about the frequency on the Markham GO RER and the LSE GO RER.

STC needs to serve about 10k ppdph.

 

[44 North]

Sounds good to me, and then the Malvern LRT can be a through-run of Eglinton Crosstown. Could argue that eventually SmartTrack is extended above ground to Centennial and rejoin the Locust Hill line.

Councillor Mary Fragedakis shows this graphic on her website that basically suggests just that. Seems to be taken from the group Transport Action Ontario.

Cool. I like the “Scarborough Line”. But also their Richmond Hill is interesting. It appears to use the Don Branch, but there’s also a Cabbagetown station. I believe some of the info for that may’ve come from this 1986 report: http://stevemunro.ca/2009/01/03/go-transits-relief-line-the-1986-study/

 

[Rainforest]

I'm still holding out hope that the Scarborough LRT ROW will be rolled into a branch of SmartTrack. That way it simply becomes a (Surface) Scarborough Subway. Tory saves face by not reverting back to LRT. The City frees up the dedicated tax revenue from the Scarborough Subway to divert to other transit projects (potentially even SmartTrack). LRT proponents get an RT line within the same budget as the LRT, with similar coverage. Subway proponents get the forced transfer at Kennedy removed, and a direct route to downtown.

It sounds good, but there are major concerns about the frequency south of Kennedy that the system can support.

 

[Rainforest]

Convinience for who exactly? The design of SSE ignores 50% of the trips Scarborough residents make, to cater to the tiny minority of trips by Scarborough residents (~20%) who are going downtown, or elsewhere along Line 2.

20% is not a tiny minority, it is a very sizable minority. Moreover, their commute today is longer than someone's who travels within Scrborough only, and hence they are in a greater need of improvement.

Furthermore, no single line will help more than 20% of commuters, whether it is subway or LRT, and regardless of the route it takes. Multiple lines are needed in any case.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

20% is not a tiny minority, it is a very sizable minority. Moreover, their commute today is longer than someone's who travels within Scrborough only, and hence they are in a greater need of improvement.

Furthermore, no single line will help more than 20% of commuters, whether it is subway or LRT, and regardless of the route it takes. Multiple lines are needed in any case.

That is true. This is why it is imperative that we spend our money in an manner that is as efficient as possible, to maximize the return on our investment and to deliver the most improvement to people living in Scarborough. Cancelling SSE, to build SmartTrack, SELRT, SLRT and SMLRT is the right decision for Scarborough. This would plan, while coming in at a lower cost, can be deliver faster and sooner than SSE, while serving more riders, providing Scarborough residents with a seamless ride downtown that is as fast as Line 2, more developable land than than any of the other plans and providing greater transit coverage, brining approximately 25% of residents, and an even greater proportion of businesses in the borough within walking distance of rapid transit. This is a plan that serves both the 50% of trips that stay within Scarborough, and the minority that leave the borough, and would make Scarborough one of the best covered suburban areas in North America.

 

[Dan416]

I can't believe how many times this thread has gone around in circles. Oh, wait, this UT, yes I can!

 

[Rainforest]

Cancelling SSE, to build SmartTrack, SELRT, SLRT and SMLRT is the right decision for Scarborough.

You really do not need to cancel SSE to build SELRT; it is already funded.

Regarding SMLRT and SmartTrack, potentially the funds can be transferred, but in practice that's unlikely. SMLRT won't get money from SSE; if SMLRT is ever funded, it will be a separate project.

SmartTrack will be funded anyway; SSE or not.