[nfitz]

And to insult the poor man the week of his funeral is what? Just pure bad taste.

Ford had no problem insulating people when he was alive. He was a horrible person. I'm not sure now that he has managed to kill himself with his excesses, why we should try and whitewash him.

That seems to be in bad taste. Surely after we've suffered the horrific leadership of a terrible person, we should talk as much as possible, so that history doesn't repeat itself, and those evil people who supported such a person, don't have a chance to pull such a stunt again. Though I'm not sure how this is on-topic here ...

 

[rbt]

For sure. Eliminating even 1.5 km of tunnelling can save us $300 Million+

Not quite. That ~$400M/km cost for subways assumes large underground stations every 750m or so. This line has very few stations.

The tunnelling cost was somewhere closer to $50M/km for Eglinton. Emergency exits are still a PITA but far less expensive than a station.

 

[nfitz]

Track, signals, lights, communications, etc., etc., etc. are probably as much per km as the tunelling. It's only one factor.

 

[APTA-2048]

I didn't personally attack the poster. I attacked the posters comment & argued the point that Rob Ford was not be the only lying Politician. Yes Ford clearly lied numerous but to single him out as a liar in a pool of liars is absurd. Id argued he was even firmer on his campaign promises than most Politicians. Even I don't agree with some of his platform. But you clearly knew what you were getting with him & in a pool mostly full of silver spoon Politicians out to feed their lobbyists friends, his theme of protecting the "little guy" is somewhat refreshing. As our current Politics has disfranchised many voters.

I never said you were attacking anyone. I never even mentioned Ford's personal life. The only person who did is you. You claim to be impartial. You claim to be under no one's influence. Yet you parrot a favourite Ford slogan: that he was for the "little guy" and that everyone else is an "elitist". There's manipulation here, but it's not from the media. You are very difficult to have a logical conversation with.

Ford tapped into the disconnect. The Political slogans surely attracted a few extra voters & this is no different than "hope" slogans which attracts a certain type of voter. But it's just Politics & doesn't represent the people as much as the acknowledgment of neglect which was greater than any other Politician to this date. The LRT option was viable because it wasn't compared to the alternative. But you only get to vote on the issues and plans on the table.

Ford was Polarizing figure & a bi-product of neglect that was tapped into. Not a direct reflection of the people but the frustration of not being represented. The City has a suburban economic growth problem & has not paid proper attention or invested properly to address it. Connecting to equitable Transit is only one issue to begin to fix this But it's very important as seen by the map.

Transit City, despite it's flaws, was explicitly catered to areas of the city that were being left out. It was investment in the suburbs. Ford's alternative was subways, sure, but in reality it would mean nothing gets built.

Ford didn't tap into anything. He exploited a feeling of neglect.

 

[nfitz]

He exploited a feeling of neglect.

Not to mention his constituents ...

I think everyone can agree that Ford was an enemy of transit in this city. Now that he's gone, I really don't see any reason to mention his name again in this forum.

 

[coffey1]

I never said you were attacking anyone. I never even mentioned Ford's personal life. The only person who did is you. You claim to be impartial. You claim to be under no one's influence. Yet you parrot a favourite Ford slogan: that he was for the "little guy" and that everyone else is an "elitist". There's manipulation here, but it's not from the media. You are very difficult to have a logical conversation with.


Transit City, despite it's flaws, was explicitly catered to areas of the city that were being left out. It was investment in the suburbs. Ford's alternative was subways, sure, but in reality it would mean nothing gets built.

Ford didn't tap into anything. He exploited a feeling of neglect.

You claim to be impartial. You claim to be under no one's influence. Yet you parrot a favourite Ford slogan: that he was for the "little guy" and that everyone else is an "elitist". There's manipulation here, but it's not from the media. You are very difficult to have a logical conversation with.

Can a person not agree with certain parts of a Politician platform/stance without agreeing with everything else? I also wouldn't go that far to say I believe everyone in the core is an "elitist". Certainly on this topic I full heartedly believe the media and there Political partners work in cohesion to create a false narrative for gain. And one political group in this City is particular is very strong as its supported by a great deal of wealth. That's politics in general unfortunately which is too bad but without having competitive support for the suburbs it's a major problem that goes unnoticed to outsiders. But frustrating as hell to residents. As I said I don't consider all people that live in these areas "elitist" by any means. Many people just don't care or even believe this exists. They take the media at it's word or just don't even notice because the narratives don't concern the or cause harm to them directly. It just is what it is. Not illuminati. Just money & politics working together.

Transit City, despite it's flaws, was explicitly catered to areas of the city that were being left out. It was investment in the suburbs. Ford's alternative was subways, sure, but in reality it would mean nothing gets built.

The local network idea is great. Unfortunately implementation counts & hacking in lines of a different technology, creating transfers into short stubs, continuing the use of ineffective routes, is not good design nor is this a proper investment for the suburbs to be on a complete separate technology. Then to really help wane support we had the lack of funding which made the plan look even worse.


Aside from the Markham/Sheppard extension the funded plan was not close to what it was being sold as. Sheppard residents were conflicted as the benefits where really only good for the eastern residents. The western residents were stuck with a short bus to a short LRT then to a subway to another subway. An extra layer that didn't make sense to many.

The Subway is about connecting Scarborough's core to Toronto's main transit infrastructure seamlessly. I wont rehash the benefits this provides. The improved local network is a separate issue from the subway in this transit starved mass of Toronto. I would argue express bus service combined with the Subway extension would have won out on a vote over any LRT plan.

The SMLRT is probably the most important LRT line in the Transit City design that was proposed & oddly it was left out of the "next wave" by Metrolinx. It's the only line that actually connects effectively, serves some "priority areas" & UTSC. So im glad to see that back but well see what comes out of the game playing once again with the SSE. It also makes the transfer in the Sheppard LRT somewhat acceptable as there is a greater use around the City

Under the Ford admin. taxes were raised & money was lobbied from the Fed's. So I wouldn't say nothing would be built. Id also argue that's what the current Mayor & Politicians from other parts should be fighting for instead of an all out war on how to avoid connecting Scarborough center to Toronto's current transit backbone.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Not to mention his constituents ...

I think everyone can agree that Ford was an enemy of transit in this city. Now that he's gone, I really don't see any reason to mention his name again in this forum.

Don't make me laugh. The people who don't like him keep talking about him

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The guy is already fading from my memory. Can we stop talking about him now

 

[ssiguy2]

Thanks for the "loop back" map Tigermister.

Well it certainly makes more sense. If there isn't going to be any intervening stations then get the subway to STC as fast and cheap as possible and using at-grade ROW is obviously the cheapest way possible.

What I fail to understand is why there is a need to extend BD to STC in the first case. I know they want {note I didn't say "have"} to replace the SRT and there are politics but why the obsession with connecting it to the DB? Seeing ST is going to be using the corridor anyway why don't they just keep Kennedy as the BD terminus station and use the ST as the non-stop subway route to the downtown/Union?

Have ST go from Union and then split near Ellesmere where half the trains continue north and the other go to STC and eventually Malvern? That $1 Billion Plus saved would go a VERY long way in building the entire eastern portion of the ST system. One billion alone would be enough to build 5 ST stations and electrify the entire STC to Union section.

I would think Scarberiens would prefer it as they would have one subway ride directly from STC to Union as opposed to the slower BD line.

 

[44 North]

This apparently should be posted once a page in here:

Scarborough residents' anger is completely misplaced. Instead of the downtown Illuminati or whatever it should be directed towards Councillors De Baeremaeker and Cho for royally screwing them over and depriving them of a transit line that would be finished and operating by now. How they get off the hook is baffling. Too many Scarborough residents are just looking for an excuse to hate on Old Toronto.

Although I like that video because it shows how useless and slow-witted Ford was, I still think Matlow, Miller, TTC, the City, etc were all complicit in complicating the debate about the SRT. And this goes well beyond that one Council scrum the video was from. I think the S(L)RT should never have been called "LRT", and the mere fact that it was labeled as "LRT" (or IMO mislabeled) polluted the project right from the outset.

Sure the S(L)RT was to use light rail vehicles, the very same used on other LRT lines. But it was to be 100% grade-separated, and was probably going to have driverless operation. Such a line shouldn't be called "LRT". Call it a light metro, light subway, or simply call it a subway (albeit one that happens to use streetcar-like vehicles designed for on-street use)...because that's what it is.

Another thing that's kinda screwy is that Matlow was adamantly announcing how Toronto doesn't have any LRT lines. If that's true, then why was Spadina, Harbourfront, and St Clair all called "LRT"? And the unbuilt East Bayfront streetcar (which will be almost a mirror image of 509) still to this day referred to as LRT?

***

As for this proposed surface SSE... have we seen any diagrams of how this could work? Any alignments, or proposals? And rather than a large loop, has it ever been explored to create a tail track east of Kennedy along Eglinton, with a Wye setup? So E/B trains departing Kennedy would travel east a couple hundred metres, then double-back along the northern part of this Wye to surface alongside the Stouffville corridor?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What I fail to understand is why there is a need to extend BD to STC in the first case. I know they want {note I didn't say "have"} to replace the SRT and there are politics but why the obsession with connecting it to the DB? Seeing ST is going to be using the corridor anyway why don't they just keep Kennedy as the BD terminus station and use the ST as the non-stop subway route to the downtown/Union?

Have ST go from Union and then split near Ellesmere where half the trains continue north and the other go to STC and eventually Malvern? That $1 Billion Plus saved would go a VERY long way in building the entire eastern portion of the ST system. One billion alone would be enough to build 5 ST stations and electrify the entire STC to Union section.

I would think Scarberiens would prefer it as they would have one subway ride directly from STC to Union as opposed to the slower BD line.

The problem is that RER frequencies will be no greater than 5 minutes at best, and even that is unlikely frequent. The frequency on each of those branches would be 8 to 12 minutes. That's not high enough service levels for Scarborough Centre.

Thanks for the "loop back" map Tigermister.

Well it certainly makes more sense. If there isn't going to be any intervening stations then get the subway to STC as fast and cheap as possible and using at-grade ROW is obviously the cheapest way possible.

Yea. This loop-back proposal to use the SRT corridor is probably the most logical proposal I've seen come out of this debate. None of the engineering challenges the TTC have mentioned are things that can't easily be overcome.

 

[BurlOak]

Have ST go from Union and then split near Ellesmere where half the trains continue north and the other go to STC and eventually Malvern? That $1 Billion Plus saved would go a VERY long way in building the entire eastern portion of the ST system.

The problem is the Lakeshore corridor. It could have 2 minute frequency at best. If 1 train goes to pickering, 1 to STC and 1 to Markham, that would give each 10 trains per hour for each branch.
SmartTrack is a John Tory idea and Metrolinx will not give up the require space in the corridor. Instead of looking at what's best for overall transit (i.e. Their mandate), they are looking after the provincial government interest.

As it was said earlier, we will get what the Provincial Liberals want.

 

[BurlOak]

Thanks for the "loop back" map Tigermister

Looking at the alignment of Kennedy station, it looks obvious that our forefathers were imagining that any extension would be along Eglinton.

B-D can be extended cut-and-cover to Kingston Road to reduce the cost. (the McCowan route can't be done this way due to Highland Creek and another ravine). This extension would connect with the Lakeshore East GO RER and a Kingston Road BRT.

Since STC and Centennial are major demand drivers, the logical thing to do was extend the Eglinton line (which can handle tighter curves) north of Kennedy (the station was already being replaced) to STC. Of course this would work well with a DRL long, but it appears that no one (key politician nor chief planner) seems to push for DRL long. To add icing on the cake, the line would branch at Centennial to either Malvern or UTSC.

 

[dowlingm]

The problem is the Lakeshore corridor. It could have 2 minute frequency at best. If 1 train goes to pickering, 1 to STC and 1 to Markham, that would give each 10 trains per hour for each branch.

2 minute frequency per direction? Per track? Where did VIA go? So many questions...

 

[BurlOak]

4 tracks from Scarborough to downtown on the Lakeshore East (and from Ellesmere to LSE).

2 are dedicated for electrified.