[syn]

Ok guys, drop the LRT conversation just as I will drop the SkyTrain one. Those horses have left the barn and anymore conversation about them is just argumentative. The diicision has been made and there is no going back so the conversation now must be about the route and any at grade/elevation/tunnel.

Just having one stop means that they should get the connection to the STC as cheaply as humanly possible because there will be no intermittent stations.

This is where the people of Scarborough can stand up and say that now we have our subway connection we have to ensure it is built as affordable as possible to allow for a potential further eastern extension to Centennial and to ensure the Eglinton East LRT line gets built.

I'm sure that was the feeling when the LRT was fully approved and funded.

The cost is already $3.2 billion without these considerations. It really has nowhere to go but up. If it's an at-grade or elevated subway using the current RT alignment, one has to wonder what the point is.

Based on the justifications for not having an LRT, I'm sure there will be an expectation of having as much of it underground as possible. At this point I think cost isn't the primary issue - simply getting it is what matters.

 

[BurlOak]

Mel Lastman was so right. By ignoring other options 3 and 4 years ago, we painted ourselves into a no win situation. And interestingly, all Councillors (but 1 I believe) and all Liberal MPPs were re-elected in that time. So as they say, we get what we deserve, and that is a 1 stop subway tunneled extension with no incentive to find savings. It will be built and tunneled regardless of cost.

 

[kEiThZ]

Mel Lastman is a douche. Ask him, if he'd have been okay with LRT on Sheppard in the 1990s.

 

[pstogios]

Paranoia my ass.. All media is Politically biased. Unless you live under a rock, or are that naïve you cant see that? I get you do see it from a Scarborough resident POV to understand the extent and lack of interest in many of our concerns. But I don't get why you have to sling mud and be such an ass as if its a joke. If anyone gets what's going on Politically. Ive been telling you whats going on in this City when you and others chose to only quote the Polarizing views and not see the root cause of why people are voting with they way they are & why the vote is so strong Politicians are starting to listen.

How dare you say you know what I think?

What gives you the gall to talk like this and constantly derail this thread your talk of conspiracy, paranoia, non-stop attacks on the media, polarizing views of "Downtown vs Scarborough" and this bizarre Scarborough inferiority complex?

I don't care what the Toronto Star says.

I don't care if someone is from downtown or Scarborough or the Moon--what matters is the soundness of their arguments on the TRANSIT.

Just focus on the TRANSIT and stop the rest of the ridiculous side comments you love throwing out there. This forum is about TRANSIT, not an outlet to exercise your angry inferiority complex.

 

[coffey1]

How dare you say you know what I think?

What gives you the gall to talk like this and constantly derail this thread your talk of conspiracy, paranoia, non-stop attacks on the media, polarizing views of "Downtown vs Scarborough" and this bizarre Scarborough inferiority complex?

I don't care what the Toronto Star says.

I don't care if someone is from downtown or Scarborough or the Moon--what matters is the soundness of their arguments on the TRANSIT.

Just focus on the TRANSIT and stop the rest of the ridiculous side comments you love throwing out there. This forum is about TRANSIT, not an outlet to exercise your angry inferiority complex.

What's sound TRANSIT discussion to you doesn't include the concerns quality integration which a large number of people in Scarborough shared. I agree with most parts of the LRT plan except the fact they were too cheap to change the Sheppard subway to LRT which would be a extra inconvenience to most Sheppard commuters. This was never properly discussed in the media. Ever. And it was just a few NIMBY's it was the majority on the West side of McCowan that opposed it. I also put A higher priority on the transfer before SCC as a growth center. No one was listening to Scarborough's voice and the discussion went on to LRT vs Subway only instead of looking for solutions. The media would always find the areas in Scarborough where residents supported the LRT option but never the opposite

Pretty much every post I made was about transit. Politics & the media are a big part this discussion. The media doesn't care or share in Scarborough's concerns except the voices that fit their narrative.. You don't get what im saying, don't care and never will. Call it paranoia or what you want but most Scarborough residents will tell you how brutal and slanted the City's Left media is. From the pictures they use , the facts they use, and the concerns that are ignored. It not to say they are lying. Its just slanted to support their agenda doesn't give the other side of the debate.

Im sorry I offend you. I post about this Political bias that's fueled the divide because it important to me and very relevant to this topic . The cost to fix the highly questionable transfers is worth every penny & I want to see it done as economically as possible. But it still needs to be done as it should have been from the start. Contrary to the portrayal the ridership still supports subway to SCC and stops at Lawrence (minus Smarttrack) and Sheppard. Id even put a friendly wager with you that within 5 years after opening the SCC stop would see WELL over 35K passengers a day.

Lets call a truce on the insults or atleast tone them down please. Youll be happy Ill be posting less anyway until more clarity comes out on the new design anyway & the more important overdue debates over taxes begin. In any event im just happy to see the concept of a hybrid plan is move forward. It's the best for unity in this City. As seen from this debate. We need it to move forward.

 

[bill r]

That's why I suggested another look at the Midland routing. The current approved routing can't be done cut and cover without considerable expropriation in residential areas, and that's just not on.

- Paul

How many lanes do you need for cut and cover? There are two secondary schools and a middle school in that stretch of Midland with plenty of school buses lined up in front.

 

[syn]

What's sound TRANSIT discussion to you doesn't include the concerns quality integration which a large number of people in Scarborough shared. I agree with most parts of the LRT plan except the fact they were too cheap to change the Sheppard subway to LRT which would be a extra inconvenience to most Sheppard commuters. This was never properly discussed in the media. Ever. And it was just a few NIMBY's it was the majority on the West side of McCowan that opposed it. I also put A higher priority on the transfer before SCC as a growth center. No one was listening to Scarborough's voice and the discussion went on to LRT vs Subway only instead of looking for solutions. The media would always find the areas in Scarborough where residents supported the LRT option but never the opposite

Pretty much every post I made was about transit. Politics & the media are a big part this discussion. The media doesn't care or share in Scarborough's concerns except the voices that fit their narrative.. You don't get what im saying, don't care and never will. Call it paranoia or what you want but most Scarborough residents will tell you how brutal and slanted the City's Left media is. From the pictures they use , the facts they use, and the concerns that are ignored. It not to say they are lying. Its just slanted to support their agenda doesn't give the other side of the debate.

Im sorry I offend you. I post about this Political bias that's fueled the divide because it important to me and very relevant to this topic . The cost to fix the highly questionable transfers is worth every penny & I want to see it done as economically as possible. But it still needs to be done as it should have been from the start. Contrary to the portrayal the ridership still supports subway to SCC and stops at Lawrence (minus Smarttrack) and Sheppard. Id even put a friendly wager with you that within 5 years after opening the SCC stop would see WELL over 35K passengers a day.

Lets call a truce on the insults or atleast tone them down please. Youll be happy Ill be posting less anyway until more clarity comes out on the new design anyway & the more important overdue debates over taxes begin. In any event im just happy to see the concept of a hybrid plan is move forward. It's the best for unity in this City. As seen from this debate. We need it to move forward.

Making transfers is part of using transit. Spending billions extra just so commuters going north to the STC don't have change vehicles, all while excluding thousands of other Scarborough residents is kind of silly, don't you think?

STC will see an increase, and Kennedy probably will too because everyone in between will have no other choice. 35K passengers a day doesn't justify an extension.

As for Scarborough's voice, a poll a few years ago had the majority of Scarborough residents (56%) in favour of an LRT:

http://www.newswire.ca/news-release...er-subway-for-scarborough-poll-513657021.html

 

[BurlOak]

How many lanes do you need for cut and cover? There are two secondary schools and a middle school in that stretch of Midland with plenty of school buses lined up in front.

This link had some information.
From slide 7

• "Cut and cover is generally quicker than tunnel boring and more predictable in terms of scheduling."
• The excavation was about 2.5 to 3 lanes wide (with stacked tunnels), likely 3.5 to 4 lanes for side-by-side tunnels.
• The schedule shows that each segment took about 12 months to complete, with each segment between 1km and 3km. (with the stacked tracks, this likely took longer than side-by-side due to deeper excavation.

If minimizing the disruption is the goal, which it wasn't so much for Vancouver's Canada Line, then I imagine a 60m moving operation where entire road is closed. The first 10m involves excavation, the second 10m preparing the bedding, the third 10m laying the precast tunnels, the fourth 10m waterproofing joints and the fifth 10m backfilling. and the sixth paving. This operation would move 10m per day along the road with maybe a single one-way lane open on one side if absolutely needed. Then when you get to a station, it will be significantly shallower and likely take half the time to construct.

 

[kEiThZ]

This link had some information.
From slide 7

• "Cut and cover is generally quicker than tunnel boring and more predictable in terms of scheduling."
• The excavation was about 2.5 to 3 lanes wide (with stacked tunnels), likely 3.5 to 4 lanes for side-by-side tunnels.
• The schedule shows that each segment took about 12 months to complete, with each segment between 1km and 3km. (with the stacked tracks, this likely took longer than side-by-side due to deeper excavation.

If minimizing the disruption is the goal, which it wasn't so much for Vancouver's Canada Line, then I imagine a 60m moving operation where entire road is closed. The first 10m involves excavation, the second 10m preparing the bedding, the third 10m laying the precast tunnels, the fourth 10m waterproofing joints and the fifth 10m backfilling. and the sixth paving. This operation would move 10m per day along the road with maybe a single one-way lane open on one side if absolutely needed. Then when you get to a station, it will be significantly shallower and likely take half the time to construct.

McCowan, Danforth and Eglinton are perfect for cut and cover. If there are savings to be had, I seriously hope they go this route. Plow the savings into a Lawrence East station.

 

[kEiThZ]

@syn Making transfers is part of riding transit. But nobody likes illogical transfers. Imagine, the Yonge subway terminates at Sheppard. Would it be logical to you to build an LRT there to reinforce that transfer?

Look at the ridership stats. The SRT can really be distilled to two stops. Lawrence and Scarborough Centre. And you can add McCowan, Midland and Ellesmere to the SC catchment.

LRT would have been better because of the one seat ride to Yonge. However, the time savings would have been negligible for any core bound rider. Whatever was saved on the transfer would be lost due to added time heading south on Yonge. Or if you want to access the DRL, you'll be transferring at Kennedy anyway. And this becomes an issue because the travel time is what's bugging people.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

@syn Making transfers is part of riding transit. But nobody likes illogical transfers. Imagine, the Yonge subway terminates at Sheppard. Would it be logical to you to build an LRT there to reinforce that transfer?

Look at the ridership stats. The SRT can really be distilled to two stops. Lawrence and Scarborough Centre. And you can add McCowan, Midland and Ellesmere to the SC catchment.

LRT would have been better because of the one seat ride to Yonge. However, the time savings would have been negligible for any core bound rider. Whatever was saved on the transfer would be lost due to added time heading south on Yonge. Or if you want to access the DRL, you'll be transferring at Kennedy anyway. And this becomes an issue because the travel time is what's bugging people.

People wanted an LRT on Yonge @ Finch as recently as 2013. And even the Eglinton line won't be through.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Piragal Thiru, who is running in the Scarborough-Rouge River by-election as a Liberal supports the Scarborough subway. He is even a transportation policy planner.

 

[edmundoconnor]

Piragal Thiru, who is running in the Scarborough-Rouge River by-election as a Liberal supports the Scarborough subway. He is even a transportation policy planner.

I rather suspect he would. As Eric Miller shows, you can find planners to support anything.

To quote Winston Zeddemore: "If there's a steady paycheck in it, I'll believe anything you say."

 

[bill r]

This link had some information.
From slide 7

• The excavation was ... likely 3.5 to 4 lanes for side-by-side tunnels.

... I imagine a 60m moving operation where entire road is closed. ... This operation would move 10m per day along the road with maybe a single one-way lane open on one side if absolutely needed. Then when you get to a station, it will be significantly shallower and likely take half the time to construct.

There will be challenges to get school kids to walk from where the buses drop them off, but it's still doable if Midland has to be closed.

There is a creek south of Lawrence, that crosses Midland. Does this pose a problem for cut and cover?

Steve Munro, never short of opinions, has said "an important component — utility relocations. You cannot just charge down a street digging a trench into which you will drop your tunnel segments without first moving all of the utilities out of the way. This cannot be done 10m at a time."
.
Maybe we could take two lanes for a long stretch, and move all the utilities, then cut and cover in sections closing the whole section

I'm all for a Lawrence subway station.

 

[syn]

@syn Making transfers is part of riding transit. But nobody likes illogical transfers. Imagine, the Yonge subway terminates at Sheppard. Would it be logical to you to build an LRT there to reinforce that transfer?

Look at the ridership stats. The SRT can really be distilled to two stops. Lawrence and Scarborough Centre. And you can add McCowan, Midland and Ellesmere to the SC catchment.

LRT would have been better because of the one seat ride to Yonge. However, the time savings would have been negligible for any core bound rider. Whatever was saved on the transfer would be lost due to added time heading south on Yonge. Or if you want to access the DRL, you'll be transferring at Kennedy anyway. And this becomes an issue because the travel time is what's bugging people.

An LRT would make perfect sense if that's what the transit reality of that area of the city demanded. It would be unrealistic of me to expect one mode of transit to take me where I want to go.

Would it be nice if I could stay on the subway and get dropped off at Square One? Sure. But I realize there's a reason why there's no Mississauga Subway. Getting on Mississauga Transit isn't a big deal for me. Neither is using YRT/Viva when I get off at Finch.

Of the many times I've used the RT, I've never once considered it an inconvenience or a 'lesser' form of transit. I don't see it as any different than any other transfer I'd make when using the subway, whether it's the RT, getting on the streetcar or a bus.

If you want to talk about numbers, the King & Queen Streetcar lines carry over 100,000 riders a day. Would it be reasonable of me to expect a subway that takes me straight to King & John?

The 510 Spadina has greater ridership than the RT too. Should I expect a direct subway connection to Queen & Spadina?

Instead of a single one-stop subway, a better solution would be a network of LRT lines that provides far greater transit access to Scarborough residents.

In any case, I'm not holding my breath that this extension is going to be be cost-effective. The entire process has been irrational, so I don't see that suddenly changing when it comes to actually planning and implementing it.