[amnesiajune]

I hate the idea that infrastructure decisions should be designed based on construction impact rather than what's the best alignment for the city, especially when it's at a higher cost.

"Based on" isn't the same thing as "considering". The current SRT alignment isn't a poor choice just because it requires shutting down the SRT early. It's a poor choice because it interacts badly with the existing Kennedy station, it doesn't have the same future expansion potential (a station could be added at Lawrence/McCowan with the McCowan alignment), and it avoids the need for an SRT replacement shuttle (or just frequent & all-day 131E service). And, at least in my opinion, it's better than the 7-stop LRT to Kennedy for reasons that don't need to be repeated.

One day a lot of people will look back and think "we've could have done better"

I doubt that.

"Hey it would have been nice if we had a Lawrence stop as well"

If they feel that way then they'll just build a Lawrence stop. It's not unprecedented. Like I said earlier today, the North York Centre stop on Yonge was added to the subway 13 years after the Finch extension opened; 20 years after it was removed from the Yonge extension plans to save money.

 

[micheal_can]

I hate the idea that infrastructure decisions should be designed based on construction impact rather than what's the best alignment for the city, especially when it's at a higher cost. Should we also cancel plans to build the relief line on Queen Street just because streetcars will be affected? What about all the Eglinton bus riders who are grinding through horrible traffic because of the Crosstown? Like it or not, building transit involves some inconvenience. But in the end none of that will matter anymore and the benefits will last a lifetime.

Scarborough is getting a one stop subway at an extremely high cost because of their incredibly short sighted fixation on avoiding an SRT shutdown. You people consider subways to be a 100 year investment yet somehow this is more important. One day a lot of people will look back and think "we've could have done better", "hey it would have been nice if we had a Lawrence stop as well". I hope it was worth it.

If they align it right, which it sounds like they will, That one stop subway extension could have 2 -3 stops put in at a later date. North York Station is a good example of that.

 

[Cobra]

I hate the idea that infrastructure decisions should be designed based on construction impact rather than what's the best alignment for the city, especially when it's at a higher cost.

I agree, however the TTC itself said the impact of shutting down the RT were very high, to the point that they had little confidence they could deliver an adequate and reliable service. That's also why very pro-LRT councillors voted subway, because even they thought that the shuttle service as per TTC scenario was too extreme.

Should we also cancel plans to build the relief line on Queen Street just because streetcars will be affected?

Queen Street? It's more likely cars would be the casualty and if they need to use buses, you know full well that the downtown core has alternative streetcar routes and nearby subway stations that Scarborough doesn't have

What about all the Eglinton bus riders who are grinding through horrible traffic because of the Crosstown?

Tell me you aren't comparing bus service with the Scarborough RT? Are you serious????

Like it or not, building transit involves some inconvenience.

Those inconveniences are human beings

But in the end none of that will matter anymore and the benefits will last a lifetime.

Talking like someone who doesn't live there and wouldn't have to put up with it. You got to see this from their perspective...just a little.

If the TTC says it will be a nightmare, not an inconvenience, you can't expect them to be thrill about that line being replace by shuttle buses due to City Hall choosing to neglect the Scarborough RT for decades. Unbelievable that people can't see that...

Scarborough is getting a one stop subway at an extremely high cost because of their incredibly short sighted fixation on avoiding an SRT shutdown.

Who's they? The people of Scarborough didn't ask for the 1 stop subway. Blame Tory for that. The 3 stop plan was the better plan but Tory needed his pet project Smarttrack funded. Short sighted to care about the quality of life of all those people...who also happen to pay taxes? Interesting

You people consider subways to be a 100 year investment yet somehow this is more important.

You people? I'm not from Scarborough and I'm insulted. I apologize for showing empathy for the Scarborough residents that I consider equally Torontonian as the rest of us.

One day a lot of people will look back and think "we've could have done better"

That's exactly what everyone in Scarborough are saying 30 years later realizing that if they would have bothered to maintain the SRT or build the subway from the get go, "yes, we could have done better". They didn't ask for Lawrence East station to be transferred to Smarttrack, Tory did. You should start pointing fingers at the right place

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This flew a bit under the radar. It looks like the one-stop extension is going to exceed the $3.56 Billion budget for Scarborough Transit.

Back in July, the capital costs were estimated to be $3.2 Billion + $0.2 Billion for financing. TTC CEO Andy Byford also noted that every month of delay would add $13 Million to project costs. These delays should now have accumulated into $0.104 Billion in cost escalations for the project.

Total costs for the Scarborough Subway extension should now lie at $3.504 Billion, or $3.304 Billion (not including financing). The project is still subject to up to $1 Billion in additional escalations as detailed engineering continues.

Source: https://twitter.com/jpags/status/819178387151454208

The City will almost certainly need to raise property taxes again to pay for the escalations, or we'll need to find some way to dramatically lower cost. Now would be a nice time to figure out how to build this on the SRT corridor, or change to a cheaper contruction method, such as cut/cover. This also means that $0 will be available for Crosstown East. And City Staff needs to get their act together - they're costing us hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[Cobra]

This flew a bit under the radar. It looks like the one-stop extension is going to exceed the $3.56 Billion budget for Scarborough Transit.

Back in July, the capital costs were estimated to be $3.2 Billion + $0.2 Billion for financing. TTC CEO Andy Byford also noted that every month of delay would add $13 Million to project costs. These delays should now have accumulated into $0.104 Billion in cost escalations for the project.

Total costs for the Scarborough Subway extension should now lie at $3.504 Billion, or $3.304 Billion (not including financing). The project is still subject to up to $1 Billion in additional escalations as detailed engineering continues.

Source: https://twitter.com/jpags/status/819178387151454208

The City will almost certainly need to raise property taxes again to pay for the escalations, or we'll need to find some way to dramatically lower cost. Now would be a nice time to figure out how to build this on the SRT corridor, or change to a cheaper contruction method, such as cut/cover. This also means that $0 will be available for Crosstown East.

At this point, they might as well use cut and cover or elevate on those streets. City council aren't shutting the RT for years. Is it possible the report being delayed is them trying to reduce the costs?

Makes sense as when you're the one having to pay for it, you tend to explore every ways possible to reduce costs. When things were paid 100% by the province, city hall didn't bother doing that.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Cut and cover is my preferred solution. It might even save enough money to add back the Lawrence East stop. Station contruction costs should be lower too since cut and cover is shallower.

 

[amnesiajune]

TTC CEO Andy Byford also noted that every month of delay would add $13 Million to project costs. These delays should now have accumulated into $0.104 Billion in cost escalations for the project.

The report was due in December. Now it's going to be out in "the first quarter of 2017" - in other words, a four month delay at most. $13 million * 4 = $52 million, so why is that figure being doubled?

 

[Cobra]

Cut and cover is my preferred solution. It might even save enough money to add back the Lawrence East stop. Station contruction costs should be lower too since cut and cover is shallower.

You're right and at this point, it's more manageable politically than having a 1 stop subway breaking over cost records. Best to piss off local drivers and residents than the whole city

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The report was due in December. Now it's going to be out in "the first quarter of 2017" - in other words, a four month delay at most. $13 million * 4 = $52 million, so why is that figure being doubled?

Jpags said the costs were $13 Million per month, starting from July, which would be eight months. If it is only $52 Million, then she'd be mistaken.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You're right and at this point, it's more manageable politically than having a 1 stop subway breaking over cost records. Best to piss off local drivers and residents than the whole city

Cut and cover isn't as disruptive as people out to be either. Let's say they start digging from Eglinton north to Ellesmere. As the contruction progresses north, they deck over the road that has been excavated. That means that a block of two of road will be closed at any moment. Spending so much extra time and money to tunnel this, just so drivers won't be inconvenienced on a residential road, is ridiculous.

Same thing applies for the Relief Line too. They're determined to dig the deepest tunnel possible to avoid an inconvenience for a small amount of people on a residential street.

We should bore on main streets, but everything else should be cut/cover.

 

[amnesiajune]

Jpags said the costs were $13 Million per month, starting from July, which would be eight months.

Why starting from July? Barring complete idiocy from the TTC, the time spent on this work should be included in the timeline. This sort of work is why the TTC said the cost of the LRT option had increased to nearly $3 billion. The lower $1.8 billion figure would've only been possible if construction had started immediately (in July) and finished within four and a half years, without any of the design updates and reapproval that would be needed.

Cut and cover is my preferred solution. It might even save enough money to add back the Lawrence East stop.

Possibly? But it would require tearing apart the streets above it, and at Lawrence the tunnel would have to be bored under the river or built as a bridge over the river (Leslie & Sheppard being a good example of the latter)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Possibly? But it would require tearing apart the streets above it, and at Lawrence the tunnel would have to be bored under the river or built as a bridge over the river (Leslie & Sheppard being a good example of the latter)

It's an empty field a Lawrence and McCowan. Should be bridge over the river, if it would save money. Should be a really small bridge too, since the river is so small. I really don't see the reason to add additional expense to tunnel under the river (tunnelling under rivers is particularly expensive).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Isn't a third party engineering firm supposed to be reviewing alternative contruction methods to reduce costs?

 

[Cobra]

Cut and cover isn't as disruptive as people out to be either. Let's say they start digging from Eglinton north to Ellesmere. As the contruction progresses north, they deck over the road that has been excavated. That means that a block of two of road will be closed at any moment. Spending so much extra time and money to tunnel this, just so drivers won't be inconvenienced on a residential road, is ridiculous.

Same thing applies for the Relief Line too. They're determined to dig the deepest tunnel possible to avoid an inconvenience for a small amount of people on a residential street.

100% agree. There should be a report comparing the cost of both construction methods for the DRL. The savings could allow us to push the line to Spadina or Bathurst instead of just University.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Elevate Bloor, Elevate Sheppard East, and get on with it.