[dowlingm]

Same could be said for the SLRT. I mean they are still looking for ways to sell it a decade later. Not sure the SSE crowd is selling it as much as banding together sending a message to combat the relentless attack to push the SLRT. The one stop is not great but either is the SLRT. Smarttrack is the issue but also not horrible. Time to move on or it will likely be subway only that gets built.

The real issue here is, and why the attacks are "relentless", that the better part of $4 billion dollars, plus a very large sum to early-retire the L2 signals and trains, is being spent to extend the subway one stop, while giving Scarborough north of the 401 no rapid transit and removing it from the SRT corridor. At the same time the City taxpayers are subsidising RER, while GO says they don't want stopping at SmartTrack stations since it might cause 905 customers to feel their trains are now too slow!

It is being done not because the numbers say it is, but because of Scarborough "deserving it", based on "lived experiences" rather than data, and based on a report which none of the major players have the guts to admit they got Andy Byford to skew.

Instead the rattly old Mark Is are getting a fresh coat of paint and toil to soldier on another decade - and more once the SSE overruns and delays hit, as they have with TYSSE and surely will here too.

 

[Tuck]

Whats the point of those articles? The last attempt to quash the subway went no where. Isn't it the city's own planners holding things up at this point? Put the alignment to a vote and move on, as they should have done a year ago.

If Tory and Colle really want the subway to go through, then as far as I can tell its already completely in their hands.

 

[OneCity]

The real issue here is, and why the attacks are "relentless", that the better part of $4 billion dollars, plus a very large sum to early-retire the L2 signals and trains, is being spent to extend the subway one stop, while giving Scarborough north of the 401 no rapid transit and removing it from the SRT corridor. At the same time the City taxpayers are subsidising RER, while GO says they don't want stopping at SmartTrack stations since it might cause 905 customers to feel their trains are now too slow!

It is being done not because the numbers say it is, but because of Scarborough "deserving it", based on "lived experiences" rather than data, and based on a report which none of the major players have the guts to admit they got Andy Byford to skew.

Instead the rattly old Mark Is are getting a fresh coat of paint and toil to soldier on another decade - and more once the SSE overruns and delays hit, as they have with TYSSE and surely will here too.

I understand your concerns, mine are very different. The transfer locations are complete garbage in the broader network, if you say the subway is now $4Billion then the LRT is likely $3.5B then. Not the BS $1.8 being trumpeted by those attackers. Its all been said. The cost for either project is not going down and people are pretty clear in Scarborough about the transfer. Actually very clear. Every project goes over budget. LRT would too. Ford gave the LRT life with an intelligent compromise and its was rejected and now some Councillors are upset at where we are. If they paid closer attention to the major Political shift occurring they would have taken the compromise and moved on. Too late now and in my opinion this current plan and administration is far better for everyone than the realistic alternative. Many are still in denial, or atleast its just the media interest to fuel a fire to sell their product. The quicker things settle down Politically the better for everyone. Fighting to push this transfer LRT plan to this extent, at this point is pure insanity. If Tory can broker peace things will likely go back to how there were in a couple terms without a Polarizing figure required.

I wish their was more stops but its still a good plan that can easily be expanded upon into more inclusive network and I believe then next phase is already being discussed as Sheppard is delayed, and that will include a proper LRT extension in Malvern. The DRL is moving forward. The Fed needs to continue to step forward. All will be fine if we just move on.

Some say the best deals in life are the ones where both sides feels like they've lost to an extent. This is basically the Tory plan in a nutshell

 

[ssiguy2]

I don't agree with this argument that the SRT should be torn down so as not to have a separate technology for one line. That argument certainly has some validity if building a new line but this line is already built. It already has the maintenance, garage, control centre, and experience in running it. The reality is that LRT is new to Toronto as the streetcars have a different purpose and are built to a different gauge.

After all the debates and endless bickering there is only one very sad reality............Toronto wants to spend $3.5 billion for the sole purpose of getting rid of a transfer. This is why I have stated and continue to believe that the decades of inaction on the Toronto rapid transit file had far less to do with Queen's Park and Ottawa and nearly everything to do with Toronto politics and TTC incompetence but of course blaming someone else for you ineptitudes is far more politically palatable.

 

[dowlingm]

I don't agree with this argument that the SRT should be torn down so as not to have a separate technology for one line. That argument certainly has some validity if building a new line but this line is already built. It already has the maintenance, garage, control centre, and experience in running it. The reality is that LRT is new to Toronto as the streetcars have a different purpose and are built to a different gauge.

The argument was that SRT was life expired and needed serious rebuild aside from the tunnel so rebuild as conventional LRT wasn't all that much in the scheme of things. Given that SRT is staggering on and will have to for a decade, we will have to see how well it does and how much it will cost to extend it into the late 2020s.

 

[JGHali]

As for the line 2 extension, given that the LRT conversion will likely not happen I think we do need to move forward with the subway option, but determine ways to significantly reduce the price. I have always been open to an elevated alignment but I know there would be fierce local opposition to that.

If you're cool with an elevated alignment, why not just go forward with the, ahem, elevated/grade-separated SLRT plan which costs less, has more stations, and goes farther than the ludicrous idea of a $4bn station?

Finally, I do believe that Scarborough Centre has more long-term development potential than some would otherwise suggest. It also has the backing of the City of Toronto Official Plan in this regard.

Yes, yes, there will be thousands of jobs, right? Just as was foreseen for North York's "downtown"? How many condos do you think you'd see south of Finch on Yonge if the nearest station to the south was York Mills?

 

[OneCity]

If you're cool with an elevated alignment, why not just go forward with the, ahem, elevated/grade-separated SLRT plan which costs less, has more stations, and goes farther than the ludicrous idea of a $4bn station?


Yes, yes, there will be thousands of jobs, right? Just as was foreseen for North York's "downtown"? How many condos do you think you'd see south of Finch on Yonge if the nearest station to the south was York Mills?

1. The transfer is terrible in this location, its not (yet) $4B. The SLRT is not far off in cost anymore, much of the latest extra cost is due the the fact we have to open up a bus terminal because it will be one the busiest stops on the line. Busier than Kipling as an end stop.

2.No one is arguing jobs. The City just isnt cohesive enough right now to pay the required attention to these areas to attract Big business like the 905 is doing. These suburban-urban Centres are very attractive and successful commuter feeder hubs to the Core where the Big business resides. In the future if the City actually has the capability to pay attention to detail in these areas and offers tax incentives to attract business outside of the Golden egg of Downtown. But since that doesn't seem possible any time soon its more important to provide better convenience to allow the inner suburbs to access the job core.

 

[JGHali]

1. The transfer is terrible in this location, its not (yet) $4B. The SLRT is not far off in cost anymore, much of the latest extra cost is due the the fact we have to open up a bus terminal because it will be one the busiest stops on the line. Busier than Kipling as an end stop.

Which is why the SLRT would have greatly simplified the transfer. Transfers are part of any mass transit system and the notion that we should spend literally billions of dollars to eliminate one is insanity and a completely and almost criminally irresponsible waste of finite money.

Let me reiterate that again - the subway extension, costing at minimum billions, for the sole benefit of a single stop that actually does not goes as far as the current SRT, is criminally irresponsible and entirely unjustifiable. That this is even up for debate or even the preference of moronic panderers like the Mayor, the Premier, Brad Duguid, and Glenn deB shows how utterly and completely dysfunctional infrastructure planning is. These politicians are essentially nothing more than kleptocrats who are using the money of the people of Toronto and Ontario for their own political ambitions and nothing else.

2.No one is arguing jobs. The City just isnt cohesive enough right now to pay the required attention to these areas to attract Big business like the 905 is doing. These suburban-urban Centres are very attractive and successful commuter feeder hubs to the Core where the Big business resides. In the future if the City actually has the capability to pay attention to detail in these areas and offers tax incentives to attract business outside of the Golden egg of Downtown. But since that doesn't seem possible any time soon its more important to provide better convenience to allow the inner suburbs to access the job core.

And to think I responded to someone up thread talking about jobs!! So someone is. And there are already plenty of offices and other developments along with 401 and 404. Have been for years and years. But the same does not hold for, say, Finch station, though it does have some nice big parking lots in the hydro corridor.

Otherwise, why would it be in anyone's interest for the city to give tax breaks to businesses outside of downtown? Or are you suggesting we should be able to easily walk to work or transit stations close by? Because not many people live right next door to STC.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They should really stop referring to it as an extension to "Scarborough Town Centre" - I guess this is what is more familiar to people, but this is misleading in that it makes the mall the focus... when it should be just "Scarborough Centre" which is the overall area

Grasping at straws, no? STC and SC are used interchangeably. And STC seem to be far better known than SC. Outside of planning discussions, people just about always refer to it as STC.

 

[OneCity]

Grasping at straws, no? STC and SC are used interchangeably. And STC seem to be far better known than SC. Outside of planning discussions, people just about always refer to it as STC.

Maybe Scarborough Metropolitan Centre would be better. From recent experience no one seems have an issue with subway to Metro Centers even in lowly populated ones.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Maybe Scarborough Metropolitan Centre would be better. From recent experience no one seems have an issue with subway to Metro Centers even in lowly populated ones.

Why not?

Rename North York Centre to North York Metropolitan Centre, Kipling to Etobicoke Metropolitan Centre, and Coxwell to East York Metropolitan Centre. Maybe on the Crosstown LRT, instead of Keelesdale it should be York Metropolitan Centre, and on the Relief Line, instead of City Hall it should be Toronto Metropolitan Centre.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Why not?

Rename North York Centre to North York Metropolitan Centre, Kipling to Etobicoke Metropolitan Centre, and Coxwell to East York Metropolitan Centre. Maybe on the Crosstown LRT, instead of Keelesdale it should be York Metropolitan Centre, and on the Relief Line, instead of City Hall it should be Toronto Metropolitan Centre.

Are those the least used stations?

 

[44 North]

The point of replacing the RT was to

• obtain economies of scale where one fleet of vehicles would no longer be needed
• allow RT extensions at grade-shared ROW where that made sense - impossible with ICTS
• allow RT trains to operate from the Sheppard yard shared with Sheppard East LRT which helped the economics of that route

It wasn't just change for the sake of change. If anything the mistake made was not to commit to refurbing the SRT into the mid2020s, then rush building Sheppard East and Eglinton East (Scarborough-Malvern) so that when the time came to shut down SRT for refit that there were other viable options available rather than a crazy number of buses.

I wonder if there was an actual economics case presented for using LFLRVs vs a simple Line 3 vehicle upgrade. Your second two points show there was obviously merit in using standard LRVs with street-running capability. But I think any economies of scale with using the Flexity Freedoms would've been lost on account of the major capital expenditure of modifying every station for low floor, rebuilding the guideway for heavier vehicles, and on the operational side the higher energy costs of running significantly heavier LRVs vs the much lighter metro vehicles like the MkII or III.

They should really stop referring to it as an extension to "Scarborough Town Centre" - I guess this is what is more familiar to people, but this is misleading in that it makes the mall the focus... when it should be just "Scarborough Centre" which is the overall area

Yea it's one of those confusing things with these Centres or faux downtowns. Many call it STC with no problem, the electoral district and the Prov's UGC plan ID it as Scarborough Centre, but the actual Metro-era and current City definition is Scarborough City Centre...which shares an acronym with the Scarborough Civic Centre building. So I guess it could be STC, SC, or SCC. Or "downtown". STC seems to prevail in these discussions, which I guess is fine.

 

[JoEddie7677]

From Jennifer Pagliaro Toronto Star's conversation with Toronto staffers.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So that essentially means that they are assuming the SRT transfer takes 3 minutes on average. My experience is more like 5 or 6.

Trains also regularly crawl into Kennedy, I wonder if a more modern crossover at Scarborough Centre would eliminate that.