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Interesting. That makes sense. I thought they have to dig deep anyways because of the geological conditions. Well if we are going to be building 6km extension and we want to make it more cost effective, why not so cut/cover. McCowan is busy, but one advantage that Scarborough has is that there are many N-S streets that could handle the traffic. E-W is the main issue.
 
There are myriad issues in this thread.

I'm sure I've contributed thoughts before, but will restate and contemporize them here.

On whether the extension should be built:

This is a legitimate debate, and it does not service the cause of good policy to have extremists at either end playing fast and loose w/the facts.

Steve Munro, who has expressed a clear preference for the LRT/Transit City version has conceded there are merits in going with a subway extension, although it would
clearly not be his first choice, and the express version of the line, in combination w/Smart Track makes a so/so case worse.

Let's break this down shall we.

In Favour of the line:

The number one argument is simply that reconstruction/replacement is necessary (of the current SRT) and that replacing the lost capacity during a closure of 2-3.5 years would be very challenging and likely inconvenient for existing riders.

Two, the current line is over capacity, so we know, as there is a parallel bus service that there is not only greater demand that what the SRT serves, but to a near certainty, latent demand as yet untapped.

Three, the oft-cited comparison in passenger volumes of demand for a subway are disingenuous in so far as no line's volume is measured based on that at its outermost stations, which will by definition have lower volume.

The traffic numbers, by global standards, and even more so, North American ones aren't unreasonable, though they do skew to the low side.

Four, if built w/additional stations, there may be opportunity for greater/easier access to a major hospital (trip generator) and possibly the removal or reduction of some bus services providing a partial operating offset.

Five, by historic standards, volumes will be much higher than outer reaches of the B-D line when first built.

****

Against the line:

As proposed, it has only one station added.

This means many existing riders will be inconvenienced, ridership will be lower than in versions w/more stations, there is unlikely to be any material benefit in terms of bus service reduction/removal.

The line is more expensive than originally stated, and more expensive by some measure than the LRT option.

It will serve fewer people in terms of direct access than the full LRT to Malvern version in terms of catchment area.

It therefore serves fewer vulnerable, low-income folks as well.

The current version w/only one station just doesn't make sense, the speed of operation benefits are negligible and it the costs savings are partially offset by the need for additional emergency exits.

****

Clouding the debate

Figures are fudged and misrepresented by both sides

Cost figures are altered by 'yard accommodation costs'

In the case of the above, the yard for LRT has been cancelled and its costs were tied in w/Sheppard LRT which itself has an future TBD.

While the subway yard capacity required to serve an SSE has now been purchased, and will likely be built out regardless to serve a DRL.

Its an open question as to what portion of those costs should then be charged to the SSE project.

The line makes more sense w/o Smart Track at Lawrence.

Smart Track @ Lawrence can't co-exist w/the LRT option anyway, so far as I understand.

Finally, Scarborough General Hospital is the main argument to me for choosing an SSE (obviously contingent on a station to serve it).

Said campus will be rebuilt, w/in 15 years, the only question is whether that will occur at the current location.

If it does not, the rationale for the SSE crumbles, in my mind; if it does, the rationale is likely enhanced, as I expect a replacement hospital to be materially larger, w/higher patient volumes, visitors and employment levels.

********

My 2 cents, the argument for the SSE is sound, subject to including 2 additional stations, removing/reducing select bus services, no Smart Track @ Lawrence, and yard accommodation costs being pro-rated to the capacity required for the extension. The further fiat being the upside cost is hard capped at 4B.

That said, an LRT alternative is a legitimate choice; and the preferred choice if the hospital is relocated, or the SSE built in non-viable fashion.


***

The Final Word: The Relief Line is a much higher priority than either of these projects, give or take the SRT's expiry date.



The Hospital is suppose to be rebuilt and relocated to the City Center. But nonetheless I agree ST should go and stops added.
 
The Hospital is suppose to be rebuilt and relocated to the City Center. But nonetheless I agree ST should go and stops added.

Interesting..........first I've heard of a specific block in mind for SGH relocation.

I don't doubt you, but would ask if you can share where you heard this, and if a specific parcel of land has been proposed.
 
The Hospital is suppose to be rebuilt and relocated to the City Center. But nonetheless I agree ST should go and stops added.

Well that would certainly be a game-changer. If true, hopefully it would provide the impetus to build a station.
 
We don't know where a Scarborough megahospital will go - but yes, a new single-site acute care Scarborough hospital is in the mid-term plans, now that Centenary is joined with Grace and General. The province loves building them in suburban greenfields, far from transit or where people live, with only a few exceptions, like the new Humber River Hospital on the MTO Downsview lands.

In Scarborough, it quite likely means a disused industrial or commercial site like in Golden Mile, or along the Kennedy or Midland Road corridor. Maybe on Progress near Bellamy. We don't know.

In any case, Lawrence/McCowan makes sense if you're going to build a subway extension to STC, partially for the bus connections.
 
There are myriad issues in this thread.

I'm sure I've contributed thoughts before, but will restate and contemporize them here.

On whether the extension should be built:

This is a legitimate debate, and it does not service the cause of good policy to have extremists at either end playing fast and loose w/the facts.

Steve Munro, who has expressed a clear preference for the LRT/Transit City version has conceded there are merits in going with a subway extension, although it would
clearly not be his first choice, and the express version of the line, in combination w/Smart Track makes a so/so case worse.

Let's break this down shall we.

In Favour of the line:

The number one argument is simply that reconstruction/replacement is necessary (of the current SRT) and that replacing the lost capacity during a closure of 2-3.5 years would be very challenging and likely inconvenient for existing riders.

Two, the current line is over capacity, so we know, as there is a parallel bus service that there is not only greater demand that what the SRT serves, but to a near certainty, latent demand as yet untapped.

Three, the oft-cited comparison in passenger volumes of demand for a subway are disingenuous in so far as no line's volume is measured based on that at its outermost stations, which will by definition have lower volume.

The traffic numbers, by global standards, and even more so, North American ones aren't unreasonable, though they do skew to the low side.

Four, if built w/additional stations, there may be opportunity for greater/easier access to a major hospital (trip generator) and possibly the removal or reduction of some bus services providing a partial operating offset.

Five, by historic standards, volumes will be much higher than outer reaches of the B-D line when first built.

****

Against the line:

As proposed, it has only one station added.

This means many existing riders will be inconvenienced, ridership will be lower than in versions w/more stations, there is unlikely to be any material benefit in terms of bus service reduction/removal.

The line is more expensive than originally stated, and more expensive by some measure than the LRT option.

It will serve fewer people in terms of direct access than the full LRT to Malvern version in terms of catchment area.

It therefore serves fewer vulnerable, low-income folks as well.

The current version w/only one station just doesn't make sense, the speed of operation benefits are negligible and it the costs savings are partially offset by the need for additional emergency exits.

****

Clouding the debate

Figures are fudged and misrepresented by both sides

Cost figures are altered by 'yard accommodation costs'

In the case of the above, the yard for LRT has been cancelled and its costs were tied in w/Sheppard LRT which itself has an future TBD.

While the subway yard capacity required to serve an SSE has now been purchased, and will likely be built out regardless to serve a DRL.

Its an open question as to what portion of those costs should then be charged to the SSE project.

The line makes more sense w/o Smart Track at Lawrence.

Smart Track @ Lawrence can't co-exist w/the LRT option anyway, so far as I understand.

Finally, Scarborough General Hospital is the main argument to me for choosing an SSE (obviously contingent on a station to serve it).

Said campus will be rebuilt, w/in 15 years, the only question is whether that will occur at the current location.

If it does not, the rationale for the SSE crumbles, in my mind; if it does, the rationale is likely enhanced, as I expect a replacement hospital to be materially larger, w/higher patient volumes, visitors and employment levels.

********

My 2 cents, the argument for the SSE is sound, subject to including 2 additional stations, removing/reducing select bus services, no Smart Track @ Lawrence, and yard accommodation costs being pro-rated to the capacity required for the extension. The further fiat being the upside cost is hard capped at 4B.

That said, an LRT alternative is a legitimate choice; and the preferred choice if the hospital is relocated, or the SSE built in non-viable fashion.


***

The Final Word: The Relief Line is a much higher priority than either of these projects, give or take the SRT's expiry date.
I believe when this LRT was first chosen, the plan was to have the line run through with Eglinton towards Yonge. Perhpas this is when LRT was selected as preferable - because it would be (somewhat) lower cost and still serve STC. They already committed to LRT when the ridership numbers were found to be so high that the on-street portion wouldn't work. They simply decided to force everyone onto the B-D line, without farther analysis. This was the fatal flaw in the Transit City plan.

When it was found that the line would not be continuous from SRT to Eglinton, they should have re-evaluated the entire project.
Then when politicians insisted on the transfer being eliminated, came the second instance that the project should have been re-evaluated to find the best means of achieving the political goal (no transfer).
These missed opportunities are what brought us to where we are now - forced to chose between 2 pretty flawed solutions.
 
We don't know where a Scarborough megahospital will go - but yes, a new single-site acute care Scarborough hospital is in the mid-term plans, now that Centenary is joined with Grace and General. The province loves building them in suburban greenfields, far from transit or where people live, with only a few exceptions, like the new Humber River Hospital on the MTO Downsview lands.

In Scarborough, it quite likely means a disused industrial or commercial site like in Golden Mile, or along the Kennedy or Midland Road corridor. Maybe on Progress near Bellamy. We don't know.

In any case, Lawrence/McCowan makes sense if you're going to build a subway extension to STC, partially for the bus connections.

Hopefully not in any of those locations you mentioned - central and in/around SCC area would make a lot more sense. Can't think of any greenfield of the dimensions of Humber Hospital, but something could probably be worked out. And it'd be nice to know if the Prov and City/TTC consider Scarboro Hospital's closure in the subway debate. With the site vacant it could theoretically allow for an elevated structure to cross Highland Cr + a shallow Lawrence W station.
 
Yes, it's 'nice' to have an express route. The problem is that we shouldn't be spending $5 billion of limited transit dollars on something that's 'nice to have' and less flexible than what's currently in place. That's not even factoring in that the subway was never designed to be a 6KM suburban express route.

We should be spending money on things that are desperately needed, like the DRL.

Lawrence Station is essential for this extension to offer at least some value at some point (though it still doesn't make it acceptable).
I see what you're saying but given the limited funds we have, the single stop is the best we can accomplish with that money. Unless more funding is secured, adding the Lawrence station just isn't possible.

I am neutral on the Lawrence station personally.
 
Interesting..........first I've heard of a specific block in mind for SGH relocation.

I don't doubt you, but would ask if you can share where you heard this, and if a specific parcel of land has been proposed.

No final conceptual report out yet so certainly nothing set in stone. I had read a few articles the last couple years regarding the plans to make SCC a long term "urban node" and the importance of the new hospital in this location. Initial Expert panel report http://www.tsh.to/wp-content/uploads/Report-of-the-ScarboroughWest-Durham-Panel.pdf on pg.15 cites the need to be near all forms of transit and access to public transit as a key factor in determining hospital site. SCC would be obvious with the 401, subway, BRT and new bus route catchment area.

Didn't find much on a quick goog search but also found this reference to the possible City Centre relocation http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/comm/communicationfile-58604.pdf Makes sense that Lawrence will be kept as the General thru construction of the new hospital elsewhere and will then be a satellite hospital after if no rapid transit station will be in this location. Anywhere else for the General hospital like industrial lands as another poster mentioned really doesn't make much sense long term. But his is the Province so it could certainly still be an option :)
 
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Right now, how long can the current RT last?

What I think is that the plan should be shelved, and take that money and put it towards the DRL
 
Right now, how long can the current RT last?

What I think is that the plan should be shelved, and take that money and put it towards the DRL

OK ? :confused: Or we can vote for Politicians who will lobby the upper levels of Government for the entire City as a whole and DRL as a priority instead. Because lobbying might just work & wanting to take from other areas of the City will only send our Politics further into the toilet and not even remotely realistic to begin with.
 
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Right now, how long can the current RT last?

What I think is that the plan should be shelved, and take that money and put it towards the DRL
So you want the SRT to get old like the Gardiner where it's literally crumbling until you do something about it? I support this, even though they're already doing little things to prolong its lifetime. When did maintenance of the Gardiner start? Did they do anything before it started crumbling?
 
So you want the SRT to get old like the Gardiner where it's literally crumbling until you do something about it? I support this, even though they're already doing little things to prolong its lifetime. When did maintenance of the Gardiner start? Did they do anything before it started crumbling?
i hope it actually does crumble to the ground with no cars on there though
 
Right now, how long can the current RT last?

What I think is that the plan should be shelved, and take that money and put it towards the DRL

This mentality is off-putting to say the least. Hoping to transfer funds away from Scarborough, won't even begin to amass the $14-$20 billion required for the DRL fully built out (Mount Dennis - Don Mills Stn). Why should east-enders suffer for decades when the SRT is clearly at its end-of-life point now and the SSE can be completed in under 10 years if only the perpetual second-guessing and what-ifs would cease?

Better to demand brand new monies get raised to fund the DRL altogether rather than stretch the limited kitty the OLP/LPC has already earmarked for all other transit projects across the City, just a mere $7 billion over 10 years.
 
This mentality is off-putting to say the least. Hoping to transfer funds away from Scarborough, won't even begin to amass the $14-$20 billion required for the DRL fully built out (Mount Dennis - Don Mills Stn). Why should east-enders suffer for decades when the SRT is clearly at its end-of-life point now and the SSE can be completed in under 10 years if only the perpetual second-guessing and what-ifs would cease?

Better to demand brand new monies get raised to fund the DRL altogether rather than stretch the limited kitty the OLP/LPC has already earmarked for all other transit projects across the City, just a mere $7 billion over 10 years.
I think a better estimate is $30 billion.






For just the Downtown U
 

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