[OneCity]

http://www.scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/assets/scarborough-subway-extension-tpap-noc.pdf

 

[steveintoronto]

North York Centre is nowhere near Sheppard and Leslie.....

Which is exactly the point.

North York Centre was intentionally designed to contain development within a block or two of Yonge Street. The city fights any development proposal outside of there. Remember when they tried to name a townhouse street "OMB Folly"? That was less than two blocks west of Yonge.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Too bad they can't just have a Stoufville Line spur to STC with 20 minute headways straight to Union at TTC fares.

 

[amnesiajune]

Which is exactly the point.

I can't believe that I have to clarify this, but I'm not talking about all of North York when I talk about development being contained within a block of Yonge. I'm only talking about the area around the NYCC subway station. As anyone with one working eye would know, lots of development is allowed on Sheppard East.

Too bad they can't just have a Stoufville Line spur to STC with 20 minute headways straight to Union at TTC fares.

People always bring this up. It's not practical. Aside from the garbage service frequency, Go Transit requires massive stations - an STC station would be about the same length as the entire mall, from the west corner of the HBC to the east corner of the Sears store.

 

[M II A II R II K]

That would make the train easier to catch if you're anywhere at STC. And 20 minute headways would get you downtown a lot faster than sitting through the subway.

 

[OneCity]

That would make the train easier to catch if you're anywhere at STC. And 20 minute headways would get you downtown a lot faster than sitting through the subway.

A coordination nightmare between Government agencies but in terms of commuter use it makes a ton of sense . Would you propose taking the Sheppard subway to Agincourt?

Also how would you determine Union to SCC or a TTC fare or any other stop in between? The coordination would be an epic disaster just like Smarttrack will be

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm only talking about the area around the NYCC subway station.

Then I suggest you itemize exactly where density has increased along the Sheppard Subway such to justify building it. Ridership is still subsidized to the tune of $30 per rider each trip.

Lessons from Toronto’s Sheppard subway line
Adrian Morrow


The Globe and Mail

Published Friday, Nov. 16, 2012 9:50PM EST

Last updated Sunday, Nov. 18, 2012 6:52PM EST

[...]
The rationale for the project was that better transit would spread the construction of offices and apartment buildings around the city. Suburbanites along the line would get new development in their neighbourhoods; downtowners would get a break from the pressures of ever-increasing density.

After numerous delays, the subway finally saw the light of day on Nov. 22, 2002.

A decade on, the line is far from achieving what politicians envisioned all those years ago. Ridership on a typical weekday is less than on the King streetcar. The line stretches only 5.5 kilometres, too short to be useful for most travellers. And it hasn’t stopped downtown from becoming ever more dense, or reduced crowding on inner-city transit.

A billion-dollar piece of infrastructure in a cash-strapped city, the Sheppard subway is a showpiece for what happens when politics trump planning, and when transit is built primarily in an attempt to develop real estate. [...]
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...torontos-sheppard-subway-line/article5402731/

 

[M II A II R II K]

If it were extended to Rouge Hill it could serve as an Uptown rail line connected to Durham and would be much more useful even if there were no extra development. And mostly above ground of course.

 

[aquateam]

Then I suggest you itemize exactly where density has increased along the Sheppard Subway such to justify building it. Ridership is still subsidized to the tune of $30 per rider each trip.

Amnesia's point is that the amount of development at NYCC, whose habitants would take the Yonge line south, has nothing to do with the ridership of the Sheppard line. The question isn't whether or not subway was the correct technology choice for Sheppard, the question is what the constrained zoning around Yonge has to do with the Sheppard line given that the travel demand originates from the east.

Saying that the lack of development at NYCC is the reason that the Sheppard line should have been LRT is like saying a lack of development downtown is the reason we don't need GO electrification: the marginal impact on travel demand from the former has no bearing on the technology choice for east-west cross-town travel.

 

[steveintoronto]

Amnesia's point is that the amount of development at NYCC, whose habitants would take the Yonge line south, has nothing to do with the ridership of the Sheppard line. The question isn't whether or not subway was the correct technology choice for Sheppard, the question is what the constrained zoning around Yonge has to do with the Sheppard line given that the travel demand originates from the east.

Saying that the lack of development at NYCC is the reason that the Sheppard line should have been LRT is like saying a lack of development downtown is the reason we don't need GO electrification: the marginal impact on travel demand from the former has no bearing on the technology choice for east-west cross-town travel.

Here's the lineage of the string:
JGHali said: ↑

A block east or west of Yonge and you still have nothing but single-family detached homes.

amnesiajune said: ↑

North York Centre was intentionally designed to contain development within a block or two of Yonge Street. The city fights any development proposal outside of there. Remember when they tried to name a townhouse street "OMB Folly"? That was less than two blocks west of Yonge.

So since you've picked up the baton, not knowing where it came from, perhaps you can point to why the subway was built, and the claim, as I quoted from Globe story, "The rationale for the project was that better transit would spread the construction of offices and apartment buildings around the city. Suburbanites along the line would get new development in their neighbourhoods; downtowners would get a break from the pressures of ever-increasing density.".

Please, show cause for why the Sheppard subway was built, and subsequent evidence of it "spread(ing) the construction of offices and apartment buildings around the city".

It just hasn't happened. So using that line of argument for building subways with no immediate cause d'etre as being a case of "build it and they will come" just hasn't proved to be correct, not in the least in the case of the Sheppard Subway.

The writing is on the wall, when is the lesson ever learned?

Toronto on Track: Is the Sheppard subway line going nowhere?
[...]
Despite the density, many consider Sheppard a disappointment. Ridership remains abysmal – on an average weekday, 49,440 passengers board the train, less than four per cent of all subway or RT trips across the TTC network – and commuting patterns have remained largely unchanged.

Leslie Station, for example, has the second-highest percentages of residents who drive to work of any stop on the existing subway.

"Sheppard's a conundrum," said Coun. Josh Colle, the new chair of the TTC. "The development has come, but based on ridership, it doesn't appear that a transit-oriented way of life has come with it."

The lack of riders has turned the subway line into an anchor on city finances. The gap between the operating cost and the farebox is so wide that Colle estimates the city pays $10 every time someone sets foot on the train.

"You could run taxis from Don Mills Road and it would probably be cheaper for the city," said Coun. John Filion.

Filion, whose ward includes Bayview Station, called Sheppard "a classic screw up." The influx of residential development has overwhelmed the area's infrastructure, he said, and created a host of problems including electrical brownouts, overcrowded schools and lengthy waiting lists for childcare.

Oh, and then there's the traffic.

"We've been in the area for 20 years. The traffic has really increased," said Sue Eberle, owner of Pet Valu on Sheppard Avenue. "But how is that the point of a subway?"

And while sold out condos have certainly lined the pockets of developers, Filion said little of the promised prosperity the line was supposed to bring has materialized. In the postal codes nearest Bayview Station, for example, the median household income is the same today as it was in 2001.

"That's the lesson of Sheppard," Colle said. "You can't assume there's a magic wand, that subways will just bring the development you want. There's a huge planning component that has to go along with it."

The future of "the subway to nowhere" is still unclear. Numerous expansions, to both the east and west, have been considered, but none have been made official. [...]

http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2014/12/04/toronto-on-track-a-sheppard-subway-to-nowhere.html

 

[amnesiajune]

Then I suggest you itemize exactly where density has increased along the Sheppard Subway such to justify building it. Ridership is still subsidized to the tune of $30 per rider each trip.

Lol. No, that's hilariously wrong. The Sheppard subway costs about $40 million/year to run. It has about 16 million passengers per year. That works out to around $1.25/passenger in subsidies, not $30. A $30 subsidy would mean that 5 kilometers of the subway system takes up more than a quarter of the TTC's entire operating budget, including farebox revenue.

Anyways, the density is there all over Sheppard. The subway has low ridership because the people who live in the apartments along Sheppard East generally work in places where commuting by transit isn't feasible. The cost of buying/renting an apartment there (pretty much the same as NYCC, Yonge/Eglinton and many parts of downtown) means that if people are working downtown and commuting by transit, they're not going to live on Sheppard East.

 

[44 North]

Amnesia's point is that the amount of development at NYCC, whose habitants would take the Yonge line south, has nothing to do with the ridership of the Sheppard line. The question isn't whether or not subway was the correct technology choice for Sheppard, the question is what the constrained zoning around Yonge has to do with the Sheppard line given that the travel demand originates from the east.

Saying that the lack of development at NYCC is the reason that the Sheppard line should have been LRT is like saying a lack of development downtown is the reason we don't need GO electrification: the marginal impact on travel demand from the former has no bearing on the technology choice for east-west cross-town travel.

Not sure how true this one is. I believe it was official policy that development at NYC (and SCC for that matter) was very much dependent on the Sheppard Subway being in place. In Network 2011 it's stated: The long-term North York Centre development objectives currently proposed, can be achieved only with a Sheppard Subway.

We now know that's not true, and that light subway or LRT would be more than sufficient even if both centres are built out. But that's the argument they used, and has been used since elsewhere.

 

[steveintoronto]

The subway has low ridership because the people who live in the apartments along Sheppard East generally work in places where commuting by transit isn't feasible.

And yet again, you make the polar opposite point to your claims for building it.

 

[steveintoronto]

Not sure how true this one is. I believe it was official policy that development at NYC (and SCC for that matter) was very much dependent on the Sheppard Subway being in place. In Network 2011 it's stated: The long-term North York Centre development objectives currently proposed, can be achieved only with a Sheppard Subway.

We now know that's not true, and that light subway or LRT would be more than sufficient even if both centres are built out. But that's the argument they used, and has been used since elsewhere.

It gets even worse, albeit the locals may not know the difference let alone be aware of it:

It's a failure in all respects of being a "downtown".

With urbanity denied in North York, what is Scarborough’s fate?: Micallef
Lastman had a vision for North York City Centre, but the very “downtownness” of it, a last step in making it a truly great neighbourhood, is being denied, Micallef writes.

The Scarborough Subway comes with a lot of promise.

Though these political promises include economic benefits and increased mobility, there’s also the implicit and explicit promise of the arrival of downtown-style urbanity to Scarborough City Centre, the cluster of office and residential buildings surrounding the Scarborough Town Centre mall and Civic Centre.

Those who arrive in Toronto via Highway 401 from the east pass it all by, and visitors who know little about our city might be forgiven for thinking it’s actually downtown Toronto: it’s an impressive cluster, especially when driving by, just one of the many dense nodes across this city and region.

However, once the car is parked, this city centre doesn’t feel so downtown; instead, there are large swaths of paved parking lot and open space in between the buildings. [...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-york-what-is-scarboroughs-fate-micallef.html

How ironic the same argument is being made for STC.

 

[OneCity]

It gets even worse, albeit the locals may not know the difference let alone be aware of it:

It's a failure in all respects of being a "downtown".

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-york-what-is-scarboroughs-fate-micallef.html

How ironic the same argument is being made for STC.

I don't see it as a failure? I see it as a growing Major node which is transitioning well. Long term foresight is just fine and is a desirable area that will continue to evolve. But then again I'm in Scarborough and the only clear failure I can see is the RT. I agree with you Sheppard East should have been LRT