[OneCity]

There really isn't much development potential for McCowan and Lawrence. Only the south side of the intersection has any sort of potential and even then you are not going to fit much there. Lawrence isn't really a density friendly road until Markham Road.

There is still a potential for 2 corners to densify to the South and the surrounding mid rise/duplex along Lawrence could be intensified as well prior to Markham in the east and Brimley in the west. Better than Leslie hospital stop and most import its about providing access to the hospital and providing a local backbone connection to the busy feeder 54 bus.

 

[syn]

That's fine, but that's not being argued. Currently, it's a political shitshow of Ford and Liberal praise. If we want to debate the merits of a brimley, Lawrence east, and Sheppard stop, please do so. I'm eager to hear what people have to say.

The entire project is politically motivated. Ford's desire to make it a three stop plan are directly relevant to the project, it's cost and feasibility. The two are linked.

 

[BurlOak]

The entire project is politically motivated. Ford's desire to make it a three stop plan are directly relevant to the project, it's cost and feasibility. The two are linked.

That's fine, but that's not being argued. Currently, it's a political shitshow of Ford and Liberal praise. If we want to debate the merits of a brimley, Lawrence east, and Sheppard stop, please do so. I'm eager to hear what people have to say.

1. Brimley may be warranted depending on what the Eglinton East line does, and depending on the depth of the B-D line. Generally though, I say it is NOT warranted. Depending on the station depth, it could be quite expensive. Whether EELRT is underground or at grade, it is only two stops away from the actual Kennedy station interchange. If the Brimley bus is busy, I could see it ending at Kennedy Station (there's not much to Brimley south of Eglinton).
2. Lawrence is warranted if they built an "Old Mill" style. To do this, it must be shallow. This means re-designing the entire line. It does not seem to make sense to have a super deep station (at least people descending to such great depth would have a nearby hospital in case of heart attack). If you are redesigning this line from scratch, then there will be big delays and maybe it would be better to chose a better alignment.
3. Sheppard is warranted since it helps cross the 401. This greatly shortens the bus route to reach the terminal station. However, politically this was Stintz' idea and not Fords - so I doubt Doug would push for it. From Doug's point of view, it also would perhaps encourage the Sheppard subway to terminate here and not at STC - again not the Ford plan.
4. Finch is warranted if it goes to Sheppard. It allows for counterflow travel on the busy Finch bus - keeping people away from the Yonge line. It allow the subway line to use the Agincourt CPR rail yard - which would be needed if Woodbine is used for the DRL.

 

[JSF-1]

Well realistically the entire project should be scrapped and redesigned. The project has been so incredibly botched that building it would actually be doing Scarborough and Toronto a disservice. Thinking like this though has no place in political theater. The question than is who plans it? because in my opinion neither the City nor City Planners should be allowed to touch this; I hate to say it but this may be something better left to Metrolinx since the EC has gone pretty smoothly even with the more recent legal issue. I mean it is pretty telling that for all its worth the Crosstown has been getting built with out any earth shattering developments (up until recently) yet the City of Toronto can't even plan a subway extension without shitting itself.

I also think its about time the Province actually gets involved with this stuff (or at least ML) since I am hard pressed to find another jurisdiction that leaves planning and construction of such large projects entirely up to the municipality. Even down in the states such large projects still have either the state or a state agency involved in some way to at least keep things organized.

 

[nfitz]

Like it or not, the merits of a three stop plan vs a one stop plan, cost issues, timelines and feasibility are all relevant to this thread.

Actually, they are not.

This thread is about the current project itself.

Debating the merits is explicitly off-topic here, and has it's own thread at urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/debate-on-the-merits-of-the-scarborough-subway-extension.27288/

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well realistically the entire project should be scrapped and redesigned. The project has been so incredibly botched that building it would actually be doing Scarborough and Toronto a disservice. Thinking like this though has no place in political theater. The question than is who plans it? because in my opinion neither the City nor City Planners should be allowed to touch this; I hate to say it but this may be something better left to Metrolinx since the EC has gone pretty smoothly even with the more recent legal issue. I mean it is pretty telling that for all its worth the Crosstown has been getting built with out any earth shattering developments (up until recently) yet the City of Toronto can't even plan a subway extension without shitting itself.

I also think its about time the Province actually gets involved with this stuff (or at least ML) since I am hard pressed to find another jurisdiction that leaves planning and construction of such large projects entirely up to the municipality. Even down in the states such large projects still have either the state or a state agency involved in some way to at least keep things organized.

People here keep searching for a magical cheaper solution, and I'm not convinced there is one.

There is the "Murray alignment", which would see the Line 2 extension run on the surface in the SRT corridor. The subway itself will be cheaper, BUT when you factor in the additional costs for more trains (this route is longer and needs more trains than the McCowan alignment), the cost becomes very close to the McCowan alignment cost.

People here also often suggest using cut-and-cover. Unfortunately, this ignores the fact that cut-and-cover is often more expensive than boring.

 

[rbt]

People here also often suggest using cut-and-cover. Unfortunately, this ignores the fact that cut-and-cover is often more expensive than boring.

Boring is very cheap. Underground stations capable of holding 2400 people safely during a fire are not.

The real trick to low cost `cut&cover` are stations designed like Rosedale or Summerhill with a handful like St. Clair thrown into the mix where grades require.

 

[sixrings]

I thought part of the reason scarborough wanted subways was because they didn't want to wait outside in minus 20 weather for a train. That would be treating them without the respect they deserve.

 

[Rainforest]

1. Brimley may be warranted depending on what the Eglinton East line does, and depending on the depth of the B-D line. Generally though, I say it is NOT warranted. Depending on the station depth, it could be quite expensive. Whether EELRT is underground or at grade, it is only two stops away from the actual Kennedy station interchange. If the Brimley bus is busy, I could see it ending at Kennedy Station (there's not much to Brimley south of Eglinton).

I am in favour of Brimley station, because a) there is potential for local density around there; b) the gap between Kennedy and Lawrence East would be quite large, even if Lawrence East is back; c) riders from Eglinton East who wish to go to STC, should not have to go all the way to Kennedy and then back-track on the subway.

However, Brimley station is a nice-to-have and not a must-have.

1. Lawrence is warranted if they built an "Old Mill" style. To do this, it must be shallow. This means re-designing the entire line. It does not seem to make sense to have a super deep station (at least people descending to such great depth would have a nearby hospital in case of heart attack). If you are redesigning this line from scratch, then there will be big delays and maybe it would be better to chose a better alignment.

I prefer an Old Mill style station, but would accept a deep station if there is no other way. Having no connection to the Lawrence East route is odd, anyway.

1. Sheppard is warranted since it helps cross the 401. This greatly shortens the bus route to reach the terminal station. However, politically this was Stintz' idea and not Fords - so I doubt Doug would push for it. From Doug's point of view, it also would perhaps encourage the Sheppard subway to terminate here and not at STC - again not the Ford plan.

Going to Sheppard would be very useful from the connectivity perspective. Let's see if Doug is willing to fund that though.

1. Finch is warranted if it goes to Sheppard. It allows for counterflow travel on the busy Finch bus - keeping people away from the Yonge line. It allow the subway line to use the Agincourt CPR rail yard - which would be needed if Woodbine is used for the DRL.

IMO, going to Finch would be an overkill. Counter-flow travel can be supported much cheaper by extending the Finch East bus, or even the Finch East LRT, 2 km south to reach the subway terminus at Sheppard. The subway ridership north of Sheppard would be very thin.

Not sure CPR will surrender any land to TTC; they need the Agincourt yard for their own operations, don't they?

 

[BurlOak]

Actually, they are not.

This thread is about the current project itself.

Debating the merits is explicitly off-topic here, and has it's own thread at urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/debate-on-the-merits-of-the-scarborough-subway-extension.27288/

I thought this thread was for a B-D "subway" extension solution.
The other one for comparing a subway solution to an LRT one (either continuation of Eglinton, or transfer LRT, or other), or SkyTrain or mini-metro.

 

[syn]

Actually, they are not.

This thread is about the current project itself.

Debating the merits is explicitly off-topic here, and has it's own thread at urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/debate-on-the-merits-of-the-scarborough-subway-extension.27288/

What "current" project that would that be? The one stop plan, or the three stop plan that Ford claims will happen?

 

[syn]

People here keep searching for a magical cheaper solution, and I'm not convinced there is one.

There is the "Murray alignment", which would see the Line 2 extension run on the surface in the SRT corridor. The subway itself will be cheaper, BUT when you factor in the additional costs for more trains (this route is longer and needs more trains than the McCowan alignment), the cost because very close to the McCowan alignment cost.

People here also often suggest using cut-and-cover. Unfortunately, this ignores the fact that cut-and-cover is often more expensive than boring.

I find it hard to believe Tory and the councilors pushing for a subway would've not already found a cheaper solution if it existed. It's very much in their own interest to do so.

 

[syn]

I thought part of the reason scarborough wanted subways was because they didn't want to wait outside in minus 20 weather for a train. That would be treating them without the respect they deserve.

Perhaps the residents of Rosedale will revolt against the city for being disrespected for half a century. How dare they be treated like second class citizens?!

 

[ssiguy2]

Seeing QP is paying for RER and hence most of ST why don`t they just change the ST route from going north past Lawrence to York Region and instead have it use the current SRT ROW and have it terminate at STC and save themselves $3 billion Tory would have his subway to STC, the city and province would save billions, it would relieve Y&B, and the people would get downtown from STC {and the rest of Scar for that matter} MUCH faster than by a Bloor Street extension ? Why hasn`t anyone {including you guys reading this}proposed this to The Star, City, or Tory himself?

The best option for STC for a transfer-free trip to downtown, taxpayers, Scar residents, and everyone looking for Yonge relief also happens to be, by far, the cheapest, easiest, and quickest to build. What am I missing here?

 

[Streety McCarface]

Seeing QP is paying for RER and hence most of ST why don`t they just change the ST route from going north past Lawrence to York Region and instead have it use the current SRT ROW and have it terminate at STC and save themselves $3 billion Tory would have his subway to STC, the city and province would save billions, it would relieve Y&B, and the people would get downtown from STC {and the rest of Scar for that matter} MUCH faster than by a Bloor Street extension ? Why hasn`t anyone {including you guys reading this}proposed this to The Star, City, or Tory himself?

The best option for STC for a transfer-free trip to downtown, taxpayers, Scar residents, and everyone looking for Yonge relief also happens to be, by far, the cheapest, easiest, and quickest to build. What am I missing here?

This argument is only really applicable if:

1. Metrolinx gets it's act together and builds RER properly (High floor platforms, fare integration, EMU electrification (not that Hydrail BS), and most importantly, TRANSFERABILITY). No one wants to have to tap out of a station, walk half a kilometer, then tap in again as a "transfer". It defeats the purpose of using the RER to begin with.

2. The traveler is only going to Union Station, south of King, or Pape Gerrard (assuming the DRL opens on time and a transfer is available here). In every other instance, it's faster to take the subway because it's so well integrated with all the lines it connects to -- buses, subways, streetcars and all. A scarberian traveling to per say the Eaton Centre, U of T, or even York University would have a faster and likely easier commute if they were to take the TTC.

This is not to say that RER is inherently bad or not needed. We have one of the most crowded commuter rail lines in North America and something needs to change. However, until GO transit can establish better connections cross town (ie running trains down the midtown corridor) and better transfers with the TTC (fare paid bus terminals at EVERY go station in Toront0), the TTC will be the more efficient way for the majority of Toronto. Build them both.