[syn]

Ah yes. 16% more density than North York and you suddenly qualify for 3-4 subways! So what's the level that you need for 2 subways in your opinion? 8% more? 10% more? Be specific.

When did I write that made North York qualify for a subway? I actually wrote the opposite in a previous post.

I agree. Which is why it's entirely moronic to hold Scarborough to the same standard as North York. Indeed, the fact that North York has so many subways and is only 16% denser says a lot....about North York. But since you guys insist on using that standard....

North York is not just 16% denser - it has greater employment density. You're complaining because Scarborough isn't on Yonge Street and there's really nothing we can do about that. If individuals don't like living in Scarborough then move closer to the city.

It's like someone living in a condo downtown whining that they don't have the backyard space of Scarborough residents.

What exactly are these steps? I want you to cite specific policies with sources. I am sick of these fucking circular discussions with generics. Let's have actual policy examples. Sourced from city documents. You are saying North York has done better. Put up or shut up.

Compare Yonge and Sheppard to STC.

You'll get your answer.

There were reasons for a short extension of the Yonge Line back in the 70s that don't exist for Scarborough. I'm pretty sure you can figure out what they are.

This is how I know you guys are losing it. You're defending Mississauga densifying one corridor while leaving the rest of the suburb a auto paradise while chastising Scarbrough for development spread along several avenues and not all concentrated at SC or Kennedy.

This is exactly why people in Scarborough think a lot of these discussions are unfair. This nonsense. Right here.

I don't think we're the ones losing it lol.

When did I suggest Mississauga should be getting a subway? They shouldn't.

Just as Scarborough doesn't need anymore subways.

There is no question that Mississauga has been doing a better job for decades in terms of attracting business and densifying their core. Mississauga is very far from perfect - I certainly wouldn't use it as any kind of development model for the GTA.

Here's a question - what is the business case for Scarborough actually getting another subway stop? What are the ridership numbers that justify this investment?

 

[syn]

I agree. Let's have the City of Toronto invest 2-3 billion dollars to relocate STC and all associated buildings there to Kennedy station to make zealots like you happy.

Out of curiosity, how many decades does it take before Scarborough gets to stop paying for allowing a mall to pop up beside a highway?

When do the rest of us get to stop paying for it?

 

[nfitz]

Part of the equation is population growth. Looking at the 9 Toronto-East York ridings (including Davenport but not York South-Weston), Toronto-East York grew 7.6% from 2011 to 2016. North York frew 4.0%. Etobiocke's three ridings grew 4.9% (mostly because of the growth in the very south where Etobicoke-Lakeshore grew almost 12%).

However Scarborough grew only 1% - with Scarborough North shrinking 2.3% and Scarborough-Rouge Park shrinking 0.4%!

Looking at the population estimates for 2026 (from the October 2016 Ward Boundary review) and comparing to 2016, Scarborough is projected to grow only 2.5%, compared to 5.1% in North York, 7.0% in Etobiocke, and almost 12% in Toronto-East York (and 15.6% if you ignore the two ridings east of the Don River that extend into North York).

So where do we need more subway capacity?

Well, the last place we need it is Scarborough.

Note: Using the 25 federal ridings doesn't fully match historic North York and Toronto boundaries. Other than putting Eglinton-Lawrence and Davenport in Toronto, where I put what is pretty obvious. Though York South-Weston fits nowhere - and grew only 0.1% from 2011 to 2016, and is forecast to grow 2.4% to 2026).

 

[sixrings]

Part of the equation is population growth. Looking at the 9 Toronto-East York ridings (including Davenport but not York South-Weston), Toronto-East York grew 7.6% from 2011 to 2016. North York frew 4.0%. Etobiocke's three ridings grew 4.9% (mostly because of the growth in the very south where Etobicoke-Lakeshore grew almost 12%).

However Scarborough grew only 1% - with Scarborough North shrinking 2.3% and Scarborough-Rouge Park shrinking 0.4%!

Looking at the population estimates for 2026 (from the October 2016 Ward Boundary review) and comparing to 2016, Scarborough is projected to grow only 2.5%, compared to 5.1% in North York, 7.0% in Etobiocke, and almost 12% in Toronto-East York (and 15.6% if you ignore the two ridings east of the Don River that extend into North York).

So where do we need more subway capacity?

Well, the last place we need it is Scarborough.

Note: Using the 25 federal ridings doesn't fully match historic North York and Toronto boundaries. Other than putting Eglinton-Lawrence and Davenport in Toronto, where I put what is pretty obvious. Though York South-Weston fits nowhere - and grew only 0.1% from 2011 to 2016, and is forecast to grow 2.4% to 2026).

All those places have subways... Maybe that is why they grew.... What about Mississauga, did it grow?

 

[pstogios]

So where do we need more subway capacity?

Well, the last place we need it is Scarborough.

But all that is logical and rational.

Supporters of the SSE dont think that way.

They just want Respect. That means Subways Subways Subways.

So it’s fine and dandy to do all kinds of research but you’re preaching to a crowd that doesn’t care.

 

[rbt]

What did North York do other than build subways to achieve such great urbanity? Please share specific policies (beyond building subways) that apparently made North York an urban paradise.

That's a great question.

Out of curiosity what do the density numbers look like if you remove Yonge corridor from the equation? Several towns north of Toronto, much further from the subway than anything within Toronto borders, also have higher density and commercial activity around Yonge than the rest of the town. Newmarket perhaps is the most obvious because Yonge is lined with large malls despite quite poor transit service in 1974 when the Upper Canada mall opened.

 

[nfitz]

All those places have subways... Maybe that is why they grew.... What about Mississauga, did it grow?

Scarborough currently has 8 rapid transit stations on two lines.

Etobicoke has 4.

But hang on - all the growth in Etobiocke is at the south end of Etobicoke South-Lakeshore. Where it's not even convenient heading north to the subway to get downtown.

Perhaps it's not about rapid transit? Perhaps it's about Lakeshore real estate.

If only Scarborough was on Lake Ontario ...

 

[hw621]

Scarborough currently has 8 rapid transit stations on two lines.

Etobicoke has 4.

But hang on - all the growth in Etobiocke is at the south end of Etobicoke South-Lakeshore. Where it's not even convenient heading north to the subway to get downtown.

Perhaps it's not about rapid transit? Perhaps it's about Lakeshore real estate.

If only Scarborough was on Lake Ontario ...

LSW is kinda sub-metro tho...

 

[Rainforest]

Scarborough currently has 8 rapid transit stations on two lines.

Etobicoke has 4.

Etobicoke is getting (hopefully) Finch West LRT, which can be qualified as semi-rapid transit.

But hang on - all the growth in Etobiocke is at the south end of Etobicoke South-Lakeshore. Where it's not even convenient heading north to the subway to get downtown.

Perhaps it's not about rapid transit? Perhaps it's about Lakeshore real estate.

Yes; rapid transit is one of the factors but isn't always the key factor. I guess most of those new condo dwellers either drive to work or take Lakeshore West GO.

If only Scarborough was on Lake Ontario ...

Perhaps the section of Scarborough lake shore closest to downtown isn't suitable for condos, because of the cliffs. Further east, it gets way too far.

 

[OneCity]

Haven't heard anything about sheppard since Duguid quit.

Doug Ford campaigned directly on it. He mentioned multiple times through the campaign that hes building the "loop". So I expect design to start within the next 4 years. Inevitably the Sheppard subway was something Rob was targeting even with the agreement with the Province to connect the Crosstown to SCC. The deal agreed upon was to build both the connected LRT to SCC and the Sheppard subway

 

[sixrings]

Doug Ford campaigned directly on it. He mentioned multiple times through the campaign that hes building the "loop". So I expect design to start in the next 4 years. Inevitably the Sheppard subway was something Rob was targeting even with the agreement with the Province to connect the Crosstown to SCC. The deal was both the connected LRT and the Sheppard subway

thanks doug for clearing that up.... dont forget about your subways to markham and pickering too.

 

[11th]

Sometimes thats exactly it... pure luck... but yonge has always been a hot spot. Scarborough did not help its self though by building its city centre so far away from everything. If you had to build the city centre in no mans land could you have at least done it on a major street. If STC was located north of the 401 on Sheppard things would have been vastly different. Even better they could have built STC at Kennedy and Eglinton.

Not as likely to happen in the 70s. People needed their highway connections. Eglinton/Kennedy is not the easiest place to get to by highway; different story though if a certain expressway was built.

 

[sixrings]

Not as likely to happen in the 70s. People needed their highway connections. Eglinton/Kennedy is not the easiest place to get to by highway; different story though if a certain expressway was built.

perhaps but no matter what with what we know now the location was a mistake... Personally as a Scarborough resident I always would have chosen where Agincourt Mall was located. Its on sheppard (a major street) close to the highway (kennedy) and there was already a GO station there. I get we cant go back in time. I just dont get throwing good money after bad. A Subway stop wont magically fix the STC mess.

 

[Streety McCarface]

perhaps but no matter what with what we know now the location was a mistake... Personally as a Scarborough resident I always would have chosen where Agincourt Mall was located. Its on sheppard (a major street) close to the highway (kennedy) and there was already a GO station there. I get we cant go back in time. I just dont get throwing good money after bad. A Subway stop wont magically fix the STC mess.

At this point, it'd probably be cheaper to tear down the STC, and either grade separate Stouffville, electrify it, build 10 new stations or extend the Sheppard subway thee, all while rebuilding and relocating the STC there than building the Scarborough subway under the current plan with all the bells and whistles attached. You could probably even relocate the STC there alone for the cost of the LRT.

 

[44 North]

Not as likely to happen in the 70s. People needed their highway connections. Eglinton/Kennedy is not the easiest place to get to by highway; different story though if a certain expressway was built.

Exactly. And for the faults of a suburban megamall, it's still one stop shopping. Drive or take transit (the latter of which is particularly doable with Line 3 since it's virtually built into the mall), then walk around to individual stores. Sure not as "urban" as the older main street concept, but leaps and bounds better than what things subsequently devolved to: big box power centres. If you're fortunate enough that these monoliths surrounded by asphalt deserts have more than a single store you want to visit then put on the hi-vis vest and sunscreen for your trek. Otherwise hop back in the car.