[rbt]

I rather think of it as unlikely not to be built..

The spring budget will be telling. Either it includes the funds needed to top-up the project (start purchasing TBMs, and tunnel contracts) OR SCC, and the DRL, will be part of Ford's 2022 election campaign.

Crosstown had a decent model. TBMs & Tunnels separate from stations and everything else. Shortened the entire procurement phase by at least 2 years over a strict DBFOM. RER has had similar "early-works" tenders separate from the main package in the interest of shortening timelines.

 

[sixrings]

Im going to predict that when the costs come out they are going to say we need to do further studies... At the same time though they have already done their DRL studies and are going to agree to start those while searching for a fix to this extension mess. I truly believe it is going to be built but I dont think the shovels are going to be in the ground until after the DRL shovels start and significantly after. At least 2-3 years.

 

[Hopkins123]

So much pessimism and doom and gloom around here. Truth is, this has far more likely a shot of being built than had either the Liberals or NDP formed government. The last real subway project to be built within a reasonable time frame was the Sheppard subway under the previous Conservative government. 7 years from planning to fruition. TYSSE took 15 years under the Libs. I have some amount of faith that with a Toronto-centric Premier in charge, things are looking good for Toronto's subway projects. Ford will want to leave his mark, and what better way to do that than with a w̶a̶l̶l̶ subway.

 

[syn]

So much pessimism and doom and gloom around here. Truth is, this has far more likely a shot of being built than had either the Liberals or NDP formed government. The last real subway project to be built within a reasonable time frame was the Sheppard subway under the previous Conservative government. 7 years from planning to fruition. TYSSE took 15 years under the Libs. I have some amount of faith that with a Toronto-centric Premier in charge, things are looking good for Toronto's subway projects. Ford will want to leave his mark, and what better way to do that than with a w̶a̶l̶l̶ subway.

The Sheppard Line started construction under the NDP government in 1993. The line was proposed in 1985.

Both the Sheppard and Eglinton Lines were under construction when the PC Party was elected. Harris canceled the Eglinton Line after construction had already started, and would've canceled Sheppard too if not for Mel Lastman. The Harris government was arguably the worst for transit in the past 30 years.

The TYSSE did not take 15 years. Federal and Provincial governments committed to funding it in 2007 and it broke ground in 2009. The original EI was in 2005.

 

[JSF-1]

The Sheppard Line was started construction under the NDP government in 1993. The line was proposed in 1985.

Both the Sheppard and Eglinton Lines were under construction when the PC Party was elected. Harris canceled the Eglinton Line after construction had already started, and would've canceled Sheppard too if not for Mel Lastman. The Harris government was arguably the worst for transit in the past 30 years.

The TYSSE did not take 15 years. Federal and Provincial governments committed to funding it in 2007 and it broke ground in 2009. The original EI was in 2005.

Also don't forget that the Cons didn't even bother to top up the funding for the Sheppard Line after Eglinton was cancelled. We cancelled a Subway and the money meant for it juts magically disappeared. I mean if the Conservatives truly cared the money that wasn't spent on Eglinton would have been moved to Sheppard yet that didn't happen.

 

[syn]

Also don't forget that the Cons didn't even bother to top up the funding for the Sheppard Line after Eglinton was cancelled. We cancelled a Subway and the money meant for it juts magically disappeared. I mean if the Conservatives truly cared the money that wasn't spent on Eglinton would have been moved to Sheppard yet that didn't happen.

There's no question they had no interest in funding transit - that's why aside from the Sheppard Line, all capital transit funding was canceled. Let's not forget amalgamation and downloading.

The current and past Conservative arguments have unquestionably been awful for Toronto.

 

[Hopkins123]

The Sheppard Line started construction under the NDP government in 1993. The line was proposed in 1985.

Both the Sheppard and Eglinton Lines were under construction when the PC Party was elected. Harris canceled the Eglinton Line after construction had already started, and would've canceled Sheppard too if not for Mel Lastman. The Harris government was arguably the worst for transit in the past 30 years.

The TYSSE did not take 15 years. Federal and Provincial governments committed to funding it in 2007 and it broke ground in 2009. The original EI was in 2005.

I know the history. Who cares when lines were first proposed? 2004-2017 is a longer span of time than 1993-2002. My point is the majority of the work done occurred under the Harris government. The Sheppard Line is slim and efficient in stark contrast to the money-gouging monoliths the Liberals built for the TYSSE which could take a century before such grandiosity is even warranted.

After preaching for close to a decade about expanding the subway network deeper into Scarborough, you think Doug's just going to abandon the idea now when he has so much control over what happens next? When all three Provincial parties are in agreement? The Feds are in agreement? The Mayor and even his main opponent are in agreement?

 

[syn]

I know the history. Who cares when lines were first proposed? 2004-2017 is a longer span of time than 1993-2002. My point is the majority of the work done occurred under the Harris government. The Sheppard Line is slim and efficient in stark contrast to the money-gouging monoliths the Liberals built for the TYSSE which could take a century before such grandiosity is even warranted.

No you don't. It's more of the same - fabrications and revisionist history.

The subway was already under construction when Harris took over. The only thing they can really be credited for is not cancelling the line when it was already under construction. If they hadn't broke ground in 1994 there would be no Sheppard Line today.

You're comparing the time for conceiving, planning and constructing the TYSSE to the construction time for the Sheppard Line.

The Sheppard Line broke ground in June 1994, and was finished in late 2002. That's over 8 years.

The TYSSE broke ground in 2009 finished in 2017. The same 8 years, but the TYSSE is over 3km longer.

And let's not forget the Eglinton Crosstown (well under construction) new streetcars and the new Toronto Rocket subway trains.

The Liberals could've done a much better job on transit, but expansion was 'paradise' compared to the Harris years.

 

[Streety McCarface]

There's no question they had no interest in funding transit - that's why aside from the Sheppard Line, all capital transit funding was canceled. Let's not forget amalgamation and downloading.

The current and past Conservative arguments have unquestionably been awful for Toronto.

And pretty much the Entire GTA. (I'm looking at you HWY 407).

 

[syn]

As some have pointed out in this discussion, building a subway is no guarantee of density, employment growth nor efficient land use. 'Build it and they will come' has never been a sound subway construction strategy. We've seen this time and time again.

While this doesn't have anything to do with the SSE, the second major condo project cancellation at Vaughan's City Centre is yet another cautionary tale.

We'd be wise to learn from the very obvious lessons we're being provided with.

 

[Hopkins123]

As some have pointed out in this discussion, building a subway is no guarantee of density, employment growth nor efficient land use. 'Build it and they will come' has never been a sound subway construction strategy. We've seen this time and time again.

While this doesn't have anything to do with the SSE, the second major condo project cancellation at Vaughan's City Centre is yet another cautionary tale.

We'd be wise to learn from the very obvious lessons we're being provided with.

But yet we have High Park, Victoria Park, Sherbourne, Sheppard, North York Ctr, Sheppard West, Old Mill, Dundas West, Islington and soon to be other examples of planned communities centered around a subway station.

SSE can work if only we didn't have basement dwellers behind the scenes praying for it to fail. Don't quote me on this, but isn't like 20 new high rises not going up at the Scarborough Centre Stn site soon alone? Density takes time to grow and develop, yes, but we shouldn't wait until Scarborough is already a metropolis to think "Gee, we should have invested in some underground transit there when we had the chance!" 50 years from now is too late. 250,000 immigrants to Canada yearly are primarily picking Toronto /GTA as their new residence. The ink is running dry.

 

[syn]

Dundas West is a planned community around a subway station?

Are you one of the basement dwellers you're referring to? If so you might want to get out and take a look around. Roncesvalles, The Junction and High Park didn't just pop up after the subway arrived lol.

 

[innsertnamehere]

But yet we have High Park, Victoria Park, Sherbourne, Sheppard, North York Ctr, Sheppard West, Old Mill, Dundas West, Islington and soon to be other examples of planned communities centered around a subway station.

SSE can work if only we didn't have basement dwellers behind the scenes praying for it to fail. Don't quote me on this, but isn't like 20 new high rises not going up at the Scarborough Centre Stn site soon alone? Density takes time to grow and develop, yes, but we shouldn't wait until Scarborough is already a metropolis to think "Gee, we should have invested in some underground transit there when we had the chance!" 50 years from now is too late. 250,000 immigrants to Canada yearly are primarily picking Toronto /GTA as their new residence. The ink is running dry.

Scarborough Town Centre has not had a newly completed residential building since 2007, and although there are several zoning approvals around, none appear to be anywhere close to starting construction.

I probably wouldn't attribute the two failed projects in VMC to a bad market - more likely just incompetent developers. Gupta has cancelled / sold projects before without completing them, and Liberty Development Group is known for it's risky financing strategies and odd brokerage connections and sales strategies.

Centrecourt is having a wildly profitable time with it's Transit City project in VMC - 1,700 units that sold out essentially as soon as they could put them on the market. The project is the highlight project of the 2017 GTA condo market.

 

[hw621]

As some have pointed out in this discussion, building a subway is no guarantee of density, employment growth nor efficient land use. 'Build it and they will come' has never been a sound subway construction strategy. We've seen this time and time again.

While this doesn't have anything to do with the SSE, the second major condo project cancellation at Vaughan's City Centre is yet another cautionary tale.

We'd be wise to learn from the very obvious lessons we're being provided with.

Although I am neutral on this issue I have to say this Vaughan cancellation is not a good example. It probably proves quite the contrary. The developer cancelled the project probably because they can make more money now with the price increase brought by the subway.

 

[syn]

Although I am neutral on this issue I have to say this Vaughan cancellation is not a good example. It probably proves quite the contrary. The developer cancelled the project probably because they can make more money now with the price increase brought by the subway.

I'm not sure that's the case - the project was only unveiled a year ago.

I don't think the costs associated with going into pre-sales, along with the damage to their reputation would warrant cancelling the whole thing and launching something else.