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syn said:
Why is that?

Why didn't Scarborough City Council change zoning bylaws?

How did Mississauga manage greater growth than Scarborough without any subway or LRT lines to speak of?

A subway stop isn't a magic pill that's going to transform Scarborough.
Click to expand...

Why didn't Toronto city council do that post-amalgamation?
 
syn said:
If the entire plan to reinvigorate STC is based on getting a subway station then they're in trouble.

Subway stops have not turned the areas surrounding Warden and Kennedy stations into dense urban centres in the years they've been built.

Sheppard got an entire subway line, and change has been slow to nearly non-existent in stretches.

Scarborough, for many decades, has had 2 subway stops and a direct line connecting STC to Kennedy. This was there long before Scarborough became part of Toronto. This is a benefit no other suburb had, yet an STC boom didn't really happen.

Everyone wants change - Scarborough residents are not unique in that regard. It's one thing to want change, it's another to spend billions of dollars on something that makes no sense just for the sake of it.

The general rule of thumb is that you don't build a subway until there is density to support it - The first subway line in the city wasn't built until the streetcar line was maxed out.

As we've seen, a 'build it and they will come' approach doesn't really work. We have examples here in Toronto, but I guess we're not too keen on learning from the past.
Click to expand...
I actually live in Scarborough, and over the years I've seen Scarborough and STC grow. STC is getting better slowly...we will soon have 2 levels of food court, that are completely new. There is building that continues to happen near where I live which is Markham Rd & Sheppard...

So change will happen here in Scarborough, even without a subway station. But for sure that will accelerate the growth.

Meanwhile, we can all see that downtown is maxed out, so no new growth can be experienced without repurposing or destroying some existing establishments...
 
Sakraycore said:
Dunno if it's just me, but I always get the feeling LRT proponents don't actually want the best for Scarborough and only want to cheap out on Scarborough. I guess it doesn't help that the LRT line just happens to cost less than the SSE.
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All the LRT proponents I know personally have no problem with spending the money on Scarborough. Their objection is the value of the investment, not the amount of investment. All the LRT proponents I know are ecstatic about the Eglinton East LRT, even though adding that project will cost even more than $3.56 Billion.
 
syn said:
Exactly.

There was a plan in place, fully paid for, supported, and ready to go.

It would've been nearly done at this point.
Click to expand...

It was a Political gamble by Miller to go against the original request of Scarborough council which was once again for the subway until it was denied by the administration. The "support" was clearly fragile and the Province ducked for cover immediately once it was called out as the were fully aware of the existing localized "support". TC had its merits as a local network, but make no mistake it was a gamble and it failed based on "support"
 
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Sakraycore said:
I actually live in Scarborough, and over the years I've seen Scarborough and STC grow. STC is getting better slowly...we will soon have 2 levels of food court, that are completely new. There is building that continues to happen near where I live which is Markham Rd & Sheppard...
Click to expand...

See, I really don't spend enough time in Scarborough....had I known there was a two level food court there I might have been more supportive of the subway plan :) ;)

Sakraycore said:
So change will happen here in Scarborough, even without a subway station. But for sure that will accelerate the growth.

Meanwhile, we can all see that downtown is maxed out, so no new growth can be experienced without repurposing or destroying some existing establishments...
Click to expand...

Making up things like "downtown is maxed out" does not advance any argument.
 
syn said:
If the entire plan to reinvigorate STC is based on getting a subway station then they're in trouble.

Subway stops have not turned the areas surrounding Warden and Kennedy stations into dense urban centres in the years they've been built.

Sheppard got an entire subway line, and change has been slow to nearly non-existent in stretches.

Scarborough, for many decades, has had 2 subway stops and a direct line connecting STC to Kennedy. This was there long before Scarborough became part of Toronto. This is a benefit no other suburb had, yet an STC boom didn't really happen.

Everyone wants change - Scarborough residents are not unique in that regard. It's one thing to want change, it's another to spend billions of dollars on something that makes no sense just for the sake of it.

The general rule of thumb is that you don't build a subway until there is density to support it - The first subway line in the city wasn't built until the streetcar line was maxed out.

As we've seen, a 'build it and they will come' approach doesn't really work. We have examples here in Toronto, but I guess we're not too keen on learning from the past.
Click to expand...

Sorry if this sounds crass, but that's just rubbish. For every Warden or Kennedy, both areas slated for redevelopment mind you, there's:

High Park:
25532-89044.png


Victoria Park:
42_2.jpg


Islington:
16639-55333.png


Downsview:
AVRO-PRESENTATION_Page_05.jpg

North York Centre:
138-1875.jpg


None of these developments would have occurred in the absence of subways.
 
TOareaFan said:
^are there no areas of density anywhere in the region, then, that do not have subways?
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The transfer is an impediment that limits attractiveness, demand and therefore quality of building. And Scarborough really doesn't need many more lower quality high rises in its revitalization process. Well at least not in its Core. The subway will provide the Core with much greater attractiveness with this type of connection to go along with the new urban planning
 
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OneCity said:
Not of the same demand and quality currently being built in areas outside the core. And Scarborough really doesn't need many more lower quality high rises, well atleast not in its Core.
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well, when I look at the pictures posted by Hopkins123 a few posts up....I don't see any of them that are more dense than Mississauga City Centre (North York may be equal but not "more") and that Victoria Park picture looks like a slightly less dense version of the Bramalea City Centre area.

Two areas that not only do not have subways....they do not have railed transit at all.

I am sure there are other examples.

I have no doubt that a subway aids in densification....but I can't agree with the statement that density cannot happen without a subway.
 
TOareaFan said:
well, when I look at the pictures posted by Hopkins123 a few posts up....I don't see any of them that are more dense than Mississauga City Centre (North York may be equal but not "more") and that Victoria Park picture looks like a slightly less dense version of the Bramalea City Centre area.

Two areas that not only do not have subways....they do not have railed transit at all.

I am sure there are other examples.

I have no doubt that a subway aids in densification....but I can't agree with the statement that density cannot happen without a subway.
Click to expand...


People will only invest if they feel their money is safe and they will flock to areas planned for growth with high quality investment,

Mississauga has:

1.An airport
2. Four - 400 series highways & the QEW
3. A seamless North-South LRT proposed amongst other rapid transit projects
4. A Municipally focused business and growth plan that puts itself as a priority

And more importantly Mississauga is not on the TTC. Mississauga is flooded in Government investments past and present. People invest there at a high level, because the Government has. We'd all be foolish after seeing whats going on in Vaughan and Richmond Hill to think the subway is never coming one day. But only Scarborough can be obstructed locally to the extent we've seen.

Scarborough has:

1.401
2.A RT with a transfer right before its Core.
3.No Municipally focused plan as the City Priority to make this Core a major focal point

Although it resides in Toronto and is on the TTC, its Core is not even connected to the TTC's main infrastructure. We decided long ago we are not building any more highways in Toronto (which includes Scarborough) It has such a great opportunity to develop due to its geographical vicinity to the City if its migrated in a similar manner to comparable areas. Really not hard for me to understand why many Scarborough residents want a high form of investment for its Core and not just a better local network.
 
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OneCity said:
People will only invest if they feel their money is safe and they will flock to areas planned for growth with high quality investment,

Mississauga has:

1.An airport
2. 4 - 400 series highways & the QEW
3. A seamless North-South LRT proposed amongst other rapid transit projects
4. A Municipally focused business and growth plan that puts itself as a priority
Click to expand...

Mississauga City Centre is the area that I mentioned....not impacted by the QEW.....none of the development there is significantly impacted by the airport and most of it happened before the LRT was a glimmer in anyone's eye......but, interestingly, your list kinda proves that subways are not the only way to spur density/development.


OneCity said:
And more importantly Mississauga is not on the TTC. Missiasuaga is flooded in Government investments past and present. People invest there at a high level, because the Government has. We'd all be foolish after seeing whats going on in Vaughan and Richmond Hill to think the subway is never coming one day.
Click to expand...

The subway is not coming to Mississauga City Centre....there is no desire to push it that far west...and, more importantly, there is no request to.
 
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