[denfromoakvillemilton]

Doug will not ride that LRT, thus the LRT going right by his home makes no difference. For the ribbon cutting, he can travel to any other part of the city.

Eglinton West will have at most 1/2 of Scarborough Subway's ridership, for a comparable cost. That alone should make Eglinton West a better candidate for being delayed.

I get it that people prefer cheaper transit in the corridors where the demand level allows a cheaper option; as long as such views are promoted consistently. I can't help noticing though, that every fact-based post in support of Scarborough Subway prompts a stream of sarcastic responses and name-calling from a group of usual suspects. Same people make hardly a pip about the 4.7 billion Eglinton West plan, or about TYSSE that has lower ridership than all the SSE projections.

It almost looks like some opponents have developed an SSE anxiety.

I think the problem is now this project is being more delayed. Going to Sheppard is good and bad. I was hoping for a closed loop with the Sheppard east subway because I don't want to waste money on yet another terminal at Sheppard and McCowan. As for Eglinton West, we'll see. It crosses enough busy routes to at least keep it used in the daytime.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wait. Eglinton west is going to cost between 4-6 billion dollars. When did that happen?

Because Doug Ford wants the Eglinton West to be "subway, subway, subway".

https://twitter.com/x/status/1200488339859804163

 

[sixrings]

Because Doug Ford wants the Eglinton West to be "subway, subway, subway".

https://twitter.com/x/status/1200488339859804163

Don't worry the airport is going to pitch in 40 Million.

 

[Johnny Au]

Considering there really hasn't been any support for this line from experts I have to question the facts. If it really was as common sense as you're making it out to be there wouldn't be this huge debate and there would be more people supporting this line.

As for the sarcasm. I am simply challenging mark twains "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.". I'm sure getting a lot of experience on here. I'll happily retire from commenting with a simple ban as long as coffeey1 (onecity) is banned as well. I have no problem being a spectator on this site. However my enjoyment of this site has diminished significantly reading this persons rants. There is plenty of people on here who has different views than I do which is fine but this isn't the place to post ones conspiracy theories. I should apologize as I know I have taken out my frustration with that individual on others sometimes simply because they support the SSE. For the record I am completely fine with the one stop plan but that is a whole other topic.

There's this simple option to have peace of mind.

 

[sixrings]

There's this simple option to have peace of mind.

Yes I could ignore the person but the person still has a platform to spew their wild theories. If you say something ludicrous enough times eventually a person starts to think perhaps it's not ludicrous. Trump kept telling people he was a great businessman and eventually people believed it. The consequences of that brainwashing isn't inconsequential. Here we are being told day after day that Scarborough deserves a subway and that of course it makes sense. The bill escalates and we've heard it so much we shrug our shoulders and start to think it isn't a big deal and we should build it. We're talking about 4 billion plus dollars here. If we hadn't spent all this time debating and hearing these theories and just started with that 4 billion number we would all laugh at Scarborough and tell them to fix their RT. Instead were here justifying to ourselves that this crappy decision makes some sort of sense. I'm ok with being an observer. But I don't care to observe someone repeating nonsense over and over on a thread that's supposed to be somewhat built on rational thinking. Rather this thread has become a fantasy thread for one person trying to make converts of the rest of us.

 

[TransitBart]

Network redundancy would actually be what would resolve that dude's commute problem, and those of many Scarberians.

Building the Relief Line would provide that redundancy. 1 or 3 stop Scarborough underground funway will not.

Line 5 will too. Outside of the loop downtown, this provides two (maybe 3 if you loop line 2 / line 1 / line 5 / GO Barrie-UPX) more major rail loops north of Bloor. / Line 2

 

[Rainforest]

Wait. Eglinton west is going to cost between 4-6 billion dollars. When did that happen?

The projection is 4.7 B for Eglinton West: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...oronto-subway-plan-between-ontario-place-and/

The new design isn't known, so it might go down if they go with lots of elevated and little underground. That said, it isn't very usual for transit projects these days to end up costing below the estimate.

 

[Rainforest]

Considering there really hasn't been any support for this line from experts I have to question the facts. If it really was as common sense as you're making it out to be there wouldn't be this huge debate and there would be more people supporting this line.

Being aware that a number of experts are against this subway project, I respectfully disagree with them. The disagreement is based on the judjement of the relative importance of outcomes (such as saving the money vs saving the travel time), not on the facts per se.

As for the sarcasm. I am simply challenging mark twains "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.". I'm sure getting a lot of experience on here. I'll happily retire from commenting with a simple ban as long as coffeey1 (onecity) is banned as well. I have no problem being a spectator on this site. However my enjoyment of this site has diminished significantly reading this persons rants. There is plenty of people on here who has different views than I do which is fine but this isn't the place to post ones conspiracy theories. I should apologize as I know I have taken out my frustration with that individual on others sometimes simply because they support the SSE. For the record I am completely fine with the one stop plan but that is a whole other topic.

I don't entertain any conspiracy theories, however I view them as totally harmless, as no identifiable group exists to which those theories would apply. Who are they? downtown elites? latte-drinkers? kind of mental constructs that have no matches in real life.

On the other hand, I see the opponents of SSE distort the facts on more than a few occassions. Perhaps in most cases that can be a result of "honest bias", when people easily accept the story that fits their general views, and don't critically scrutinize all the details. Yet, I feel compelled to call out such cases in order to present a more balanced view.

Case in point: some people are happy to hear that SSE will only save 6 min per trip, and just repeat the phrase without examining what it really means. If one gives that just a moment of thought, it will become obvious that the elimination of transfer alone will save more than that. I am a regular transit user, and can assure anyone that changing the vehicles in 6 min is a lucky day occassion only, and certainly not the average. The average would be closer to at least 10 min, for well-organized transfers between two frequent lines.

 

[Northern Light]

Considering there really hasn't been any support for this line from experts I have to question the facts. If it really was as common sense as you're making it out to be there wouldn't be this huge debate and there would be more people supporting this line.

As for the sarcasm. I am simply challenging mark twains "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.". I'm sure getting a lot of experience on here. I'll happily retire from commenting with a simple ban as long as coffeey1 (onecity) is banned as well. I have no problem being a spectator on this site. However my enjoyment of this site has diminished significantly reading this persons rants. There is plenty of people on here who has different views than I do which is fine but this isn't the place to post ones conspiracy theories. I should apologize as I know I have taken out my frustration with that individual on others sometimes simply because they support the SSE. For the record I am completely fine with the one stop plan but that is a whole other topic.

For the record, I have engaged Steve Munro on this subject and even he agrees there is a credible case for some version of the SSE, although he prefers and thinks the case is better for the SRT rehab/conversion to LRT and extension.

He and I would agree the one-stop line is the worst of both worlds in which one diminishes whatever credible value the SSE may have.

The SSE is not, as a scratch-built line the highest priority in anyone's books. Clearly the RL/OL would out rank it, as would North Yonge; after that the picture is a bit fuzzier.

However, there is matter of an existing SRT which is failing/end of life, and which is routinely supplemented by bus service as it is already at capacity, and that is indicative of at least some latent demand.,

One can reasonably debate how much demand, how much future TOD related demand, route details, and a host of other items.

But I think its fair to say there is a credible case to be made for a properly scoped SSE as it related to being a necessary SRT replacement.

One must also consider the problem of how to deal with the strain of an interim SRT replacement if the line is shut down for an in-situ rebuild for no less than 3 years, and perhaps up to 5.

It should be possible to have a thoughtful discussion without deriding alternate views.

 

[OneCity]

Being aware that a number of experts are against this subway project, I respectfully disagree with them. The disagreement is based on the judjement of the relative importance of outcomes (such as saving the money vs saving the travel time), not on the facts per se.



I don't entertain any conspiracy theories, however I view them as totally harmless, as no identifiable group exists to which those theories would apply. Who are they? downtown elites? latte-drinkers? kind of mental constructs that have no matches in real life.

On the other hand, I see the opponents of SSE distort the facts on more than a few occassions. Perhaps in most cases that can be a result of "honest bias", when people easily accept the story that fits their general views, and don't critically scrutinize all the details. Yet, I feel compelled to call out such cases in order to present a more balanced view.

Case in point: some people are happy to hear that SSE will only save 6 min per trip, and just repeat the phrase without examining what it really means. If one gives that just a moment of thought, it will become obvious that the elimination of transfer alone will save more than that. I am a regular transit user, and can assure anyone that changing the vehicles in 6 min is a lucky day occassion only, and certainly not the average. The average would be closer to at least 10 min, for well-organized transfers between two frequent lines.

*Far more central feeder stop locations and Lawrence and as well now on Sheppard
*Far greater attractiveness of the Centre to develop and grow as a future hub directly connected to a main City artery
*Far more convenience with 1 less transfer for those heading towards the Core
*Approx 5-10 minutes in savings is huge in making public transit a viable alternative

It really is a great line and will be even better if the Province designs a parkade off the 401 at McCowan & Sheppard terminal which will attract even more commuters to use public transit in a more realistic manner for these areas as the City continues to develop

Not only has the criteria been off as far as connectivity goes but Toronto has been very narrow sighted with too much weight put into short term costs.

 

[Streety McCarface]

For the record, I have engaged Steve Munro on this subject and even he agrees there is a credible case for some version of the SSE, although he prefers and thinks the case is better for the SRT rehab/conversion to LRT and extension.

He and I would agree the one-stop line is the worst of both worlds in which one diminishes whatever credible value the SSE may have.

The SSE is not, as a scratch-built line the highest priority in anyone's books. Clearly the RL/OL would out rank it, as would North Yonge; after that the picture is a bit fuzzier.

However, there is matter of an existing SRT which is failing/end of life, and which is routinely supplemented by bus service as it as already at capacity, and that is indicative of at least some latent demand.,

One can reasonably debate how much demand, how much future TOD related demand, route details, and a host of other items.

But I think its fair to say there is a credible case to be made for a properly scoped SSE as it related to being a necessary SRT replacement.

One must also consider the problem of how to deal with the strain of an interim SRT replacement if the line is shut down for an in-situ rebuild for no less than 3 years, and perhaps up to 5.

It should be possible to have a thoughtful discussion without deriding alternate views.

I can second this assertion of Steve's opinion, as I have engaged in a discussion over the SSE with him personally. Based on that conversation though, he found the Ontario Line to be a bigger pile of horseshit and wasted money than a logically planned and built SSE. That's not to say it's his first choice of technology, but it certainly shows that a 3-stop SSE is not at all the worst thing to come out of the Ford Government. That being said, he still had his (very obvious) doubts over whether the project would be built.

We get it, a lot of people don't like this project, largely because it has Rob Ford's name written all over it. That doesn't mean there aren't a bunch of benefits to this type of plan. Remember, one of the selling points of the SSE when it was first proposed was that it would not require the shutdown of the SRT, which is huge in hindsight. 5 years of no rapid transit in Scarborough is clearly a non-starter when you factor in the fact that running buses would cost at least 120 million dollars (probably closer to 200 million or more with inflation), the lost productivity from using buses over rapid transit (Half a billion dollars at least), and the fact that a shutdown of this magnitude would displace at least 30 buses from other routes (including spares), the subway seems like the least intrusive option.

Again, I don't hate the LRT, I don't even mildly dislike the technology (I take Light rail every day to get to work), but I don't think it's the most economical option or the option that improves the commute the most along this corridor. What pisses me off about this whole debate is when people frame the light rail network as "The rest of the city wanting good transit for Scarborough." That's not how it works — we know streetcars don't necessarily work well in this city in a lot of areas (even with dedicated lanes), and we have no real idea how Light Rail will work in this city, so framing an unproven technology in Toronto as "the best option" is a load of horseshit.

We don't know the challenges of the technology, and whether or not it is truly the best option given the heavily integrated bus-subway network, and we don't know how the Crosstown will be affected. These same people (I'm genuinely not referring to anyone on this forum, rather some journalists and politicians) often argue that the Ontario Line should be run with subway rolling stock (which I more than agree with) because the line is important, has a significant rider base, and operational issues cannot be risked.

*Far more central feeder stop locations and Lawrence and as well now on Sheppard
*Far greater attractiveness of the Centre to develop and grow as a future hub directly connected to a main City artery
*Far more convenience with 1 less transfer for those heading towards the Core
*Approx 5-10 minutes in savings is huge in making public transit a viable alternative

It really is a great line and will be even better if the Province designs a parkade off the 401 at McCowan & Sheppard terminal which will attract even more commuters to use public transit in a more realistic manner for these areas as the City continues to develop

Not only has the criteria been off as far as connectivity goes but Toronto has been very narrow sighted with too much weight put into short term costs.

People also have to remember that most people taking a line aren't just saving 5-10 minutes of their day, but 5-10 minutes per trip. Some people make the trip 2-4 times per day, meaning the actual benefit per person adds up to between 10 and 40 minutes per day (with an average of honestly being around 20 minutes per day).

When we talk about Kitchener line improvements that will cost billions of dollars, we're totally okay with that even though the line serves less than 20K people per day, costs significantly more to operate (since it's regional rail), and will only save up to about 20-50 minutes of improvement along the commute (for a total of 600 people) per day. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't invest money in the Kitchener line, it has huge potential, but context is still everything, and sometimes we forget that other projects only come out as more favourable because of inherent bias, and the fact that user fees are much higher.

 

[sixrings]

The projection is 4.7 B for Eglinton West: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...oronto-subway-plan-between-ontario-place-and/

The new design isn't known, so it might go down if they go with lots of elevated and little underground. That said, it isn't very usual for transit projects these days to end up costing below the estimate.

I don't ever remember reading that before but that is insane and yes I'd say that is a waste as well. For the record I would use this Eglinton extension but I'm more than happy for It to be in median. As for the drl I will never use it but would like almost all our resources to go to it.

The big complaint of transit city (other than transfers....there's always going to be transfers) was that the LRTs were just going to push people onto the over capacity subways. Well here we have an opportunity to build the relief line and were considering cheaping out both in capacity and length because we're wasting resources on places like SSE and Eglinton east.

 

[sixrings]

I can second this assertion of Steve's opinion, as I have engaged in a discussion over the SSE with him personally. Based on that conversation though, he found the Ontario Line to be a bigger pile of horseshit and wasted money than a logically planned and built SSE. That's not to say it's his first choice of technology, but it certainly shows that a 3-stop SSE is not at all the worst thing to come out of the Ford Government. That being said, he still had his (very obvious) doubts over whether the project would be built.

We get it, a lot of people don't like this project, largely because it has Rob Ford's name written all over it. That doesn't mean there aren't a bunch of benefits to this type of plan. Remember, one of the selling points of the SSE when it was first proposed was that it would not require the shutdown of the SRT, which is huge in hindsight. 5 years of no rapid transit in Scarborough is clearly a non-starter when you factor in the fact that running buses would cost at least 120 million dollars (probably closer to 200 million or more with inflation), the lost productivity from using buses over rapid transit (Half a billion dollars at least), and the fact that a shutdown of this magnitude would displace at least 30 buses from other routes (including spares), the subway seems like the least intrusive option.

Again, I don't hate the LRT, I don't even mildly dislike the technology (I take Light rail every day to get to work), but I don't think it's the most economical option or the option that improves the commute the most along this corridor. What pisses me off about this whole debate is when people frame the light rail network as "The rest of the city wanting good transit for Scarborough." That's not how it works — we know streetcars don't necessarily work well in this city in a lot of areas (even with dedicated lanes), and we have no real idea how Light Rail will work in this city, so framing an unproven technology in Toronto as "the best option" is a load of horseshit.

We don't know the challenges of the technology, and whether or not it is truly the best option given the heavily integrated bus-subway network, and we don't know how the Crosstown will be affected. These same people (I'm genuinely not referring to anyone on this forum, rather some journalists and politicians) often argue that the Ontario Line should be run with subway rolling stock (which I more than agree with) because the line is important, has a significant rider base, and operational issues cannot be risked.

People also have to remember that most people taking a line aren't just saving 5-10 minutes of their day, but 5-10 minutes per trip. Some people make the trip 2-4 times per day, meaning the actual benefit per person adds up to between 10 and 40 minutes per day (with an average of honestly being around 20 minutes per day).

When we talk about Kitchener line improvements that will cost billions of dollars, we're totally okay with that even though the line serves less than 20K people per day, costs significantly more to operate (since it's regional rail), and will only save up to about 20-50 minutes of improvement along the commute (for a total of 600 people) per day. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't invest money in the Kitchener line, it has huge potential, but context is still everything, and sometimes we forget that other projects only come out as more favourable because of inherent bias, and the fact that user fees are much higher.

I'd like to think I dislike this project for greater reasons than because a Ford presented it. Sadly there was part of me which agreed with the interlining of the rt line with the Eglinton line. My main objection to that though was it would make the extension west to the airport so cost prohibitive it would never happen. Now we still have a cost prohibitive plan so maybe I was wrong there. But my other objective was that if Eglinton went tunnel the whole way places like finch would feel that they should have tunnel privileges too and then nothing would be built because we don't have that kind of money. I can't be the only person who remembers Mama and how he was willing to use anything as a wedge issues to stop finch from being built. But the main reason I was against the line was that universally we all agree a drl needs to get funded but because of wants and we were going to spend so much money here and then as an afterthought think of the drl. That never made sense to me. And here we are with a watered down drl capacity wise and with no talk of a western extension.

As a former Scarborough resident my feelings are a network of LRTs and better go integration would serve the place better. Also I am not against a subway perse but it's after the drl. The problem as everyone knows is the rt is about to break down so the timing sucks.

The only thing I can say in agreement with OneCity is that they say they are willing to pay more taxes for the subway. If everyone thought that way we wouldn't have been in this mess. But that's easy to say and then the bill comes in and everyone freaks out. As a driver everyday if you put tolls on the roads to pay for it I'd applaud that effort too.

The city just needs to pass a motion at council that every year they will build 3 km of new subway. They have to stick to that and the next council has to not cancel that promise. Then we would eventually get to these areas that feel they deserve a subway.

In summary my anti sse is about priority and lack of funds not about OneCity wanting a train station to his front door.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'd like to think I dislike this project for greater reasons than because a Ford presented it. Sadly there was part of me which agreed with the interlining of the rt line with the Eglinton line. My main objection to that though was it would make the extension west to the airport so cost prohibitive it would never happen. Now we still have a cost prohibitive plan so maybe I was wrong there. But my other objective was that if Eglinton went tunnel the whole way places like finch would feel that they should have tunnel privileges too and then nothing would be built because we don't have that kind of money. I can't be the only person who remembers Mama and how he was willing to use anything as a wedge issues to stop finch from being built. But the main reason I was against the line was that universally we all agree a drl needs to get funded but because of wants and we were going to spend so much money here and then as an afterthought think of the drl. That never made sense to me. And here we are with a watered down drl capacity wise and with no talk of a western extension.

As a former Scarborough resident my feelings are a network of LRTs and better go integration would serve the place better. Also I am not against a subway perse but it's after the drl. The problem as everyone knows is the rt is about to break down so the timing sucks.

The only thing I can say in agreement with OneCity is that they say they are willing to pay more taxes for the subway. If everyone thought that way we wouldn't have been in this mess. But that's easy to say and then the bill comes in and everyone freaks out. As a driver everyday if you put tolls on the roads to pay for it I'd applaud that effort too.

The city just needs to pass a motion at council that every year they will build 3 km of new subway. They have to stick to that and the next council has to not cancel that promise. Then we would eventually get to these areas that feel they deserve a subway.

In summary my anti sse is about priority and lack of funds not about OneCity wanting a train station to his front door.

This is all fair. I can see the appeal of a Crosstown interlined with an SRT replacement given the transfer issue would be resolved, however, we don't know how much faster line 5 will be over Line 2, and it might increase crowding on Line 1 south of Eglinton. However, given how poorly they're designing the transfer at Eglinton-Yonge, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people would see that as a non-starter. I definitely think the Eglinton East extension should be built, But I'm not sure it should be an extension of Line 5 given the vastly different operating needs of the central section and the eastern section. Perhaps an extension of the Kingston Road streetcar with a connection to Kennedy would be better for operation, the problem is track guage.

Honestly, I think it's easier for the city to get money to spend on subways to Pickering and Markham than it is for them to get money for SOGR. Not only is the TTC underfunded, but we so badly need a Relief line, additional capacity on Line 2 (which isn't going to happen), signalling improvements, second exits, additional yards, etc. At least there's a ribbon-cutting involved with subway extensions, no matter how expensive they are, and people are happy with the expansion of service. The fact that we need 20 billion dollars to shut down the TTC every weekend is a non-starter for most commuters (though it's a very necessary evil).

 

[sixrings]

The we deserve subways Scarborough timeframe also lines up with Brampton we deserve a tunneled lrt. Precedents matter which is why I didn't like converting this to subway. Now everyone wants a subway or at least grade separated like Eglinton west which increases the costs whether it's justified or not. Im tired of delays delays delays for subways subways subways.