[kEiThZ]

Right, because the problem is the system is way too integrated...

What's broken is the fact the fact that somebody from Scarborough takes a subway 30 stops to get to the core, instead of a bus to an S-Bahn type of GO REX system, with the subway being a short leg of their trip. The only reason we have people clamouring for subways, is that this is what they associate with fast, regular and reliable service. The LRTs won't change any perceptions. They'll shave off maybe 10 mins for the average rider. I actually think the LRTs will encourage resistance to transit taxes as people start seeing very little perceived return for the billions spent.

Integrating the subways, LRT and GO network will bring regional focus. Now planners will be figuring out how riders from Agincourt can transfer to Sheppard and get to Yonge midtown. Or how someone can get from Pickering to Downsview. Etc. It will also allow implementation of fare-by-distance (since GO already has that). It will speed up adoption of Presto across the system. And it will allow Metrolinx to deploy profits on boosting service on the long-haul network, instead of having them siphoned off to subsidize bus service.

 

[nautilus]

Why do these councillor pit one area against another. Its Toronto now. Until recently my son did not know what Scarborough was, all he knows is Toronto, he is 12 years old. If this is the case then the people in Etobioke should be upset for Ford focusing on Scarborough. Look at Humber Bay and the lack of transit there or still no extension to Sherway Gardens

Its the same with provincial elections and pitting Toronto against the rest of the province or Federal elections and pitting Ontario against other provinces.

People at Humber shores all drive and there's the streetcar on queen. There's no need for a subway down there or to sherway gardens.

Scarborough is full of poor people who have no choice but to take the ttc. If Scarborough wants a subway the residents there should pay for it. No reason the people of Humber shores should ge an increase in taxes so poor single moms with 5 kids can get downtown faster.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This was posted by a transit expert in the US on another board.

Link this Drum.

 

[kEiThZ]

And how will Harper tossing a cool half-billion bag of cash at Toronto that was previously unbudgetted play with his Western base?

His Western base also cares about staying in power.

The proposed subway extension now puts all of Scarborough and a good chunk of the eastern 905 within a 15-20 min drive. Max 30 mins by GO bus. Most of Pickering is now within a 20 minute drive of a subway stop at STC. And a good chunk of Markham (all of what's south of the 407) is now within a 15 minute drive of a terminus subway stop at McCowan/Sheppard. You think those residents (errr...voters) won't care about that? If the Feds don't deliver, they will be the party that cancelled the eastern subway, not Rob Ford. And, regardless of what the federal NDP and Liberals think of LRT vs. Subway debates, they will have ammunition to beat the Conservatives with all over the eastern GTA. You can bet Flaherty is under pressure to deliver now. There's more than just Scarborough voters and ridings involved.

Anyway, let's see what happens. No harm in asking is there? Worst case scenario is a "No" and we go back to the SLRT.

 

[Tulse]

it will allow Metrolinx to deploy profits on boosting service on the long-haul network, instead of having them siphoned off to subsidize bus service.

But someone will have to pay for bus service, and dis-integrating bus service with the rest of mass transit will make things worse, not better. I agree that the various rail services should be more integrated, but I don't see the need at all to hive off buses from the coordination.

 

[Tulse]

No harm in asking is there? Worst case scenario is a "No" and we go back to the SLRT.

...after yet more months of uncertainty and bickering, after reversing prior agreements, after failing to put reasonable city money on the table, after a huge distraction from more desperately-needed projects such as the DRL...

I'd hardly call that "no harm".

 

[kEiThZ]

But someone will have to pay for bus service, and dis-integrating bus service with the rest of mass transit will make things worse, not better. I agree that the various rail services should be more integrated, but I don't see the need at all to hive off buses from the coordination.

As long as the bus service is part of the same system, you will see worse long-haul transit as profits are siphoned off to sustain feeder bus service. Separate the two and long-haul service will improve dramatically and local riders will have to either pay higher fares for the bus or support higher subsidies from their property taxes. Keep in mind that Toronto actually has lower transit fares than most municipalities, and it doesn't integrate with GO at all. Not a situation that any provincial administration will want in the long run.

This actually delivers what most people actually want: better long-haul service.

In any event, it's pie-in-the-sky for now. We may end up getting there is the subway network becomes too unwieldy.

 

[kEiThZ]

...after yet more months of uncertainty and bickering, after reversing prior agreements, after failing to put reasonable city money on the table, after a huge distraction from more desperately-needed projects such as the DRL...

I'd hardly call that "no harm".

Well, it gets interesting now. Toronto City Council just voted for a tax increase to support transit expansion. I wouldn't call that a loss. Even if the feds don't deliver, the door has been opened to Torontonians acutally contributing towards expansion of their own transit system.

 

[BurlOak]

From what I understand, council made the following decision:

1. Subway over LRT
2. Increase property taxes to the level suggested by the city manager (not the lower level suggested by Ford)
3. To protect all other transit projects (including the SELRT)
4. If sufficient money is not provided by Feds and Province, to revert to the original Scarborough LRT plan.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong. If not, then I'm generally happy with the outcome. Even though I was leaning toward the LRT, this subway may provide a release valve for the pro-subway politicians so they leave the three LRT lines (Finch, Eglinton, and Sheppard) alone.

I am sure that Finch and Sheppard will be revisited during the next election campaigns. I also suppose that Conlins Yard is also put on hold for the time being. Ithink Conlins is the best indicator of whether SELRT will be built - the longer it is delayed, the less likely it is to be built.

 

[nfitz]

Even if the feds don't deliver, the door has been opened to Torontonians acutally contributing towards expansion of their own transit system.

Toronto previously voted to contribute to the last subway expansion (Spadina).

Remember, they are doing this by debt financing, and then raising taxes to pay off the detb over X (25? 30?) years. They can only do this, because Toronto's total debt is lower than the legally mandated ceiling. However, by increasing Toronto's total debt, they remove the ability to use that money for other doing projects with debt financing (like the DRL, more new streetcars, community housing).

 

[BurlOak]

Fully agree. Fare by distance should be implemented. And it won't happen as long as the TTC manages the long-haul subway network. I'd like to see the TTC broken up, with the subway and LRT network run by Metrolinx, in conjunction with GO and the buses and streetcars left to the TTC. The feeder network demands the largest subsidy and service is largely determined by local ratepayers. The subway network is more capital intensive and will usually require provincial investment. It's time to put the chickens in the proper pots.

We have Provincial Highways to move high numbers of people often greater distances. We also have a finer grid of municipally owned roads to take fewer people (per route) from the Provincial Highways to their final destination.

On the transit side, we should have Provincially owned transit to move high numbers of people often greater distances - lets call this the Comuter Rail and Subway sytem. We would then have a finer grid of municipally owned transit to take fewer people (per route) from the Provincial Transit to their final destination - lets call these buses and streetcars.

I think this model has been shown to work pretty well - except maybe the Gardiner and DVP should be uploaded to the Province.

 

[Tulse]

On the transit side, we should have Provincially owned transit to move high numbers of people often greater distances - lets call this the Comuter Rail and Subway sytem.

How common is it for an intra-city subway system to be run by the same organization that runs inter-city commuter rail?

 

[drum118]

So what you're saying is we're not getting a subway?

If the Feds don't cough up the extra funding, subway is dead.

 

[kEiThZ]

How common is it for an intra-city subway system to be run by the same organization that runs inter-city commuter rail?

I would hope that Metrolinx eventually becomes like Transport for London.

TfL manages London Underground and London Overground. It also manages taxi licensing, fare payment (Oyster card), the strategic road network, collection of the congestion charge, and trams and buses in London proper. I would love to see Metrolinx take over all long haul transit lines in the GTHA (including LRTs in Mississauga, York, etc.), the subway network, taxi licensing and highway management. Leave the municipalities to manage the local services and infrastructure they are best at.

 

[Tulse]

I would hope that Metrolinx eventually becomes like Transport for London.

TfL manages London Underground and London Overground. It also manages [...] trams and buses in London proper.

So how is that at all like the scheme you propose, where buses and trams are the responsibility of the municipality?