[Rainforest]

This subway is not better for most riders, without even including the loss of the Sheppard and Eglinton East LRT's.

The cost of SLRT + Sheppard LRT + Eglinton East LRT is certainly greater than the cost of SSE alone.

I don't know what happens to Eglinton East (hope it will get built too), but even if it is lost or delayed, the loss of all those lines cannot be caused by SSE for that simple arithmetic reason.

 

[Rainforest]

I haven't heard of anything about BRT on McCowan. The only BRT plan I am aware of is on Ellesmere between STC and UTSC.

No existing plans, but it would make sense (if the subway does not cross under 401 to reach Sheppard) to build a new bus-only bridge or underpass. So that the buses do not get stuck with the general traffic when they are trying to get from north of 401 to the STC bus terminal.

 

[Rainforest]

If you think of it: there will be only 9 intermediate stops between the STC subway terminus and the Pape station. Same number of stops as between Finch and Bloor on the Yonge line.

And then from Pape, it is a short ride on the Relief Line to reach the downtown jobs and offices.

Even though the current SSE plan is stripped down to the bare minimum, and has some weird features, it still does a lot to overcome the transit isolation of Scarborough.

 

[syn]

It was done because the people who planned the Scarborough Centre back in the 70's/80's didn't care in the slightest about public transit and pedestrian friendliness. Hell the urban planners of Scarborough in general didn't care about public transit, it was all about the car. As I implied it can be replicated BUT it will require effectively taking a scorched earth approach to the planning of the area. Things like this only work if we want them to, and even then I have my doubts about whether Downtown Scarborough will ever truly succeed. The main reason we see many stations fail to attract development is because we don't allow them to (Danforth could be a dense road but we don't allow it because of our absurd zoning by-laws). Regardless of whether a Subway or LRT is built, Scarborough Centre can succeed if we insure that the area is planed in such a manor to allow it to.

I mean I agree its not the primary goal, but then I look at the proposed design of the station at Scarborough Centre and I have to wonder if even the TTC and City understand that shortening commutes is part of the plan. I mean having the bus terminal something like a 5-10 minute walk from the Subway platform is definitely not conducive of "Connecting Bus Trips". It feels to me like they are planning the Subway around the neighborhood, not the neighborhood around the subway.

Exactly. Many if not most riders will have a longer trip than they do with the current RT, and inter-Scarborough travel will suffer greatly. All for a politically motivated line that will simply make things worse.

This is why Scarborough would be better off as it's own city. Like Mississauga, they'd be forced to embrace sensible growth and expansion, rather than forcing the rest of the city to pay for their continual mistakes. What happens a decade or two after the SSE is done and people are scratching their heads wondering how such an inefficient and inconvenient extension was built? Some politician will come along and tell the people of Scarborough they deserve better, and there will be more calls for subway expansion. Then we'll be faced, yet again, with paying for Scarborough's mistakes.

Some say we need to move ahead with this now because coming up with a new plan would be moving backwards. The reality is that going ahead with the SSE is moving backwards - and we're going to be paying about $5 billion for the displeasure.

 

[Rainforest]

SSE is a move forward, certainly not backwards. It won't solve all transit problems in Scarborough, and no single project would. But, many riders will see their trips becoming faster and easier.

The fact that it will take the riders from STC to Pape Station with just 9 intermediate stops in between, and then let them transfer to the Relief Line for a short ride downtown, clearly shows its benefits.

 

[kEiThZ]

Notice how I mentioned people commuting to anywhere south of King. Anywhere else will be slower. Currently, the trip between Kennedy and downtown is 19 minutes. When you throw in 2+ more stations along the line, then the time will probably increase to around 25 minutes of travel time. Compare this to the subway, which currently, from Kennedy, is 36-38 minutes depending on construction and the time required to transfer at Bloor Yonge.
View attachment 142092
Now that seems fine, but note: this is only for Union Station. What happens when you need to go anywhere other than Union? What about Queens Park for Uni Students, or the Eaton Centre for shoppers?

Queens Park by Subway: 35 minutes
Queen's Park by GO and Subway: 40-45 minutes depending on transfers (Google maps states that there is no transfer time between GO and the TTC, but we all know that it's at least 5-10 minutes with the 3-5 minutes to get off the train and get to the concourse, the 2-4 minute walk, and the 1-3 minute wait for a train.

Now: frequency times -- Since RER stations will have frequencies of up to 15 minutes (compared to the subway's 5 during off-peak hours), we'll assume people will have to wait twice to three times as long for a train. With this, you can add 5 minutes to the journey, and the subway journeys will get a 2.5-minute addition. At this point, RER is looking much less attractive.

I'm not against RER, I really want it to succeed, but people are vastly overstating its benefits. The subway gives you the ability to get to more destinations than RER (depending on how many stations are built). The vast majority of people will still want to take the subway because their destination does not lie within a kilometer of Union Station. People what will take is convenient for them. As a result, I believe it's important to advocate for both excellent RER and excellent subway service.

You're only looking at half the equation. You're looking at Scarborough Centre to anywhere downtown. But RER should allow you to skip Scarborough Centre entirely. Just get on to the closest RER stop and head downtown from there. The example I gave from Kennedy can be extended to virtually every GO and future RER station in Scarborough. And the further you get from Kennedy station, the greater the time savings over the subway/LRT network. And that's the true value of RER. Let's a rider bypass SC.

 

[JSF-1]

Exactly. Many if not most riders will have a longer trip than they do with the current RT, and inter-Scarborough travel will suffer greatly. All for a politically motivated line that will simply make things worse.

This is why Scarborough would be better off as it's own city. Like Mississauga, they'd be forced to embrace sensible growth and expansion, rather than forcing the rest of the city to pay for their continual mistakes. What happens a decade or two after the SSE is done and people are scratching their heads wondering how such an inefficient and inconvenient extension was built? Some politician will come along and tell the people of Scarborough they deserve better, and there will be more calls for subway expansion. Then we'll be faced, yet again, with paying for Scarborough's mistakes.

Some say we need to move ahead with this now because coming up with a new plan would be moving backwards. The reality is that going ahead with the SSE is moving backwards - and we're going to be paying about $5 billion for the displeasure.

I think Toronto as a whole would be far better off as individual cities with Metro but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Streety McCarface]

You're only looking at half the equation. You're looking at Scarborough Centre to anywhere downtown. But RER should allow you to skip Scarborough Centre entirely. Just get on to the closest RER stop and head downtown from there. The example I gave from Kennedy can be extended to virtually every GO and future RER station in Scarborough. And the further you get from Kennedy station, the greater the time savings over the subway/LRT network. And that's the true value of RER. Let's a rider bypass SC.

Again, the STC get's more ridership than all other Scarborough stations combined. Why? It's convenient for people. The GO lines only go to Union and maybe Gerrard, but that's hardly the destination for the majority of people living in this city.

 

[Voltz]

The cost of SLRT + Sheppard LRT + Eglinton East LRT is certainly greater than the cost of SSE alone.

I don't know what happens to Eglinton East (hope it will get built too), but even if it is lost or delayed, the loss of all those lines cannot be caused by SSE for that simple arithmetic reason.

Sheppard LRT had it's own funding, it's been made politically impossible to build by the garbage that gave us the SSE. Eglinton East was supposed to be a package deal with the SSE, both funded from the same pot of money, but despite the fact that council never said to prioritise the SSE over the further ahead in planning EELRT. And since the province just allocated funding for the DRL, Yonge North and WWLRT, I doubt there will be funding left for EE.

 

[Rainforest]

Sheppard LRT had it's own funding, it's been made politically impossible to build by the garbage that gave us the SSE.

Sheppard LRT and SSE are not related. You could have SLRT in place, and still same level of objections to Sheppard LRT. Or vice versa.

Eglinton East was supposed to be a package deal with the SSE, both funded from the same pot of money, but despite the fact that council never said to prioritise the SSE over the further ahead in planning EELRT. And since the province just allocated funding for the DRL, Yonge North and WWLRT, I doubt there will be funding left for EE.

Maybe not in this round; but nothing prevents EELRT from being funded in the next 4 or 5 years.

 

[syn]

Again, the STC get's more ridership than all other Scarborough stations combined. Why? It's convenient for people. The GO lines only go to Union and maybe Gerrard, but that's hardly the destination for the majority of people living in this city.

Oh dear. Scarborough residents won't be able to get on a train and go exactly where they want to go?! What a horrible injustice!

You know what would be convenient? Extensive rapid transit access. Nearly half of all transit trips that begin in Scarborough, end in Scarborough. The SSE is not a boon to most transit riders, and cripples inter-Scarborough travel.

The RER and the $5 billion poured into a LRT network in Scarborough would be transformational.

 

[11th]

Oh dear. Scarborough residents won't be able to get on a train and go exactly where they want to go?! What a horrible injustice!

You know what would be convenient? Extensive rapid transit access. Nearly half of all transit trips that begin in Scarborough, end in Scarborough. The SSE is not a boon to most transit riders, and cripples inter-Scarborough travel.

The RER and the $5 billion poured into a LRT network in Scarborough would be transformational.

Does that mean more than half of all transit trips that begin in Scarborough, end outside of Scarborough? I agree though a grade-separated LRT (a la Ottawa's Confederation Line) network would do wonders for Scarborough, but alas only the dead SLRT was that.

 

[rbt]

Does that mean more than half of all transit trips that begin in Scarborough, end outside of Scarborough?

Yep, and a good chunk of those take the Queen streetcar, Steeles bus, Finch Bus, Vic Park bus ... all locations quite distant from the proposed subway extension.

It's a fairly long trip for most Scarborough residents to get to SCC; very few trips begin (or end) at SCC.

 

[syn]

Yep, and a good chunk of those take the Queen streetcar, Steeles bus, Finch Bus, Vic Park bus ... all locations quite distant from the proposed subway extension.

It's a fairly long trip for most Scarborough residents to get to SCC; very few trips begin (or end) at SCC.

Based on city stats, of transit trips that being in Scarborough:

48% end in Scarborough
23% end downtown
24% end somewhere else in Toronto
5% end outside Toronto

The Eglinton East extension would offer terrific rapid transit access for trips in Scarborough, along with a transfer free connection to the Yonge Line (or one transfer onto the subway). A second LRT or looped system to the STC would basically connect everyone to the Yonge Line, without a transfer.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Then why are you debating it?

Apparently there is no way possible to put this above ground. Since it's now stuck underground, how much will the price increase for this project after the next update? It's almost guaranteed to be over $4 billion, with $5 billion a real possibility. What happens if it's more?

If that's the case, wouldn't you agree that every single one of the proposed LRT lines in Scarborough is bound to increase in price? You may not get as much as what you bargain for with 3 billion for an LRT network. The original SRT replacement budget was 1.8 Billion dollars. Factor in shuttle buses for the closing period (include a new bus garage), the need for a new bus terminal, increased worker costs, costs associated with delaying RER on the Stouffville line, costs associated with lost ridership, you're getting really close to 2.5 billion dollars, and I'm barely scratching the surface. How much money does that leave for the Eglinton East LRT, let alone the Sheppard East LRT?