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400WellingtonGuy

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Hi,
I am writing an article for a well-known publication about the lack of vision from condo developers in the City when it comes to building well designed suites and ammenities in buildings that are geared to attract families and not just hipsters/empty nesters. Diversity in building design is necessary if the City is going to grow healthy in the core.

So, if you had two kids under 5 years old and were looking for the perfect development to buy pre-construction in 2012, what are you looking for in terms of the features of a great family condo suite and even the ammenities in the building itself? What is missing out there in the sales centres today?

All comments welcomed!
 
As someone who was in that very situation, I can say it was mostly the fairly obvious things that mattered to us:

Unit:
- 3 bedrooms, each of decent size (10x10), with natural light and a closet
- preferably split bedroom plan, with nicely sized, open living space
- a nice outdoor space: a large balcony or terrace, not too high, with an okay view

Building:
- common space in the building: an indoor play room and/or a section of outdoor common area to be kid-friendly or at least generic
- location near to parks with playgrounds, transit and a decent public school
- a mix of units in building allowing for other families with kids and a general diversity of households
 
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I haven't been very impressed with options from developers, although some designs have been decent. I think the prices are really high though for most families with young children to afford, although this is a separate issue from design. I'll try to comment on what would be perfect in a realistic sort of way, as someone who is looking at this situation. Also, buying pre-construction with kids means that I would likely be looking for something that has already started digging, as I would at least have a better idea of when it may be completed.

Building amenities: I could truly care less, but I suppose some kind of flexible outdoor greenspace or courtyard would be best. I presume if you are living downtown your whole neighbourhood is your backyard. Location within walking distance to a school with a playground would be ideal. A place where kids can be kids is needed.

Unit (probably in the 1100-1300 sq ft range):
-Hallway at entry for a stroller, bags, sports equipment and/or instruments, etc
-large closet at entry as well
-three bedrooms, all with an exterior window and a closet. Or, two bedrooms and a dining room with a window that can convert to a bedroom when necessary.
-kitchen that is large enough for a table that can seat 4.
-I think a balcony is unnecessary, as with kids you will likely be outside/at a park rather than on your balcony.
-2 baths preferred, 1 1/2 baths at minimum
-some effort for soundproofing beyond code minimums would be preferred
 
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I wonder whether it is reluctance of families to living on condos led to the lack of family friendly condo supply, or the lack of supply that led to the inability of most families to live in condos.

If, for example, supply is not an issue and a family can buy a 1200sf three bedroom condo which is 3 km from downtown, instead of a 2400sf four bedroom house with a basement, family room etc 30km from downtown (suppose they work downtown) for the same price, how many families would choose the former over the latter?

According to my personal experience, demand is the issue here, not supply. The developers are not stupid. If there is such a demand, why don't they capitalize it? In many Asian cities, the trend is developers are building increasingly larger condo units, and buyers complain about the shortage of smaller ones. In cities like Hong Kong and Shanghai, most new developments are three bedroom or two bedrooms, and the number of one bedroom and studios are minimum. Why, because developers always do their research on what the demand is really like.

In Canada, people still have totally different preference. Having your first kid almost immediately means condo living is out of the question (which I think is a backward old fashioned way of thinking). cities like Toronto is quite safe. I don't see why small kids can't grow up in highrises. Builders are smart enough to know that, which is why they don't even bother to building large family friendly condo units, because no matter how family friend these condos are, they will always be a lot smaller without the luxury of a guest room, a yard and a basement.

I have watched too many HGTV shows in which a three or four personal family complains about their 2000sf house no longer working, and I could never understand it. If you have two kids of age 2 and 4, one 120sf room is all that is needed for both of them. People tend to look at what other families are doing, instead of thinking about "what exactly and necessarily do we need". So the issue is not developers are not willing to offer larger units, it is most families still don't want to live in condos. For example, a two bedroom condo is perfect and large enough for a family with one to two small kids. Honestly, I don't see the absolute need of anyone under the age of 14 to have his/her "own room". People are too entitled when it comes to space in North America. A guess room which is vacant for 360 days of the year, are you kidding? And I never understood the need to separate the functions of the livingroom and the family room. Why on earth do the family and their guests have to be entertained in different rooms? It is basically sitting on a couch and watching TV, right?

My parents have two kids, and I never had my own room until I was 15, when my older brother left home for college. We lived in a 850sf two bedroom apartment for years. Never heard my mother complain once "there is not enough space/storage!". If there is not enough storage in the kitchen, stopping having 15 pans/skillets/pots of various sizes! I was happy most of the time, and never felt for a second "my home is too crowded". Honestly, kids seldom feel entitled to larger space. It is usually the vanity of the parents which drive such needs.

What can we say, the vast majority of Canadians are suburban creatures and I don't think it is gonna change. Downtown will continue to be dominated by small condos occupied by singles and childless couples, and 95% of families will still move to their 2000 sf tree lined boring suburbs the minute they have their first born.
 
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I've been thinking about this a lot too ... I know a couple people from work who live downtown(ish) with families:

Seems a common area is actually St. Lawrence market eastward, particularly I'm referring to a building right out the distillery district.
Space is a key issue like you've all mentioned, he has about 1400 (family of 4) and works great for him from what I can gather.

Close daycare is key (happens to be one in the building) the layouts make a difference but they're not the be all and end all ... condo fees can be though. Not sure how but condo fees in his building are very low ... rare for a large unit like that.

Honestly condo fees kill you usually for units 1200+
 
What can we say, the vast majority of Canadians are suburban creatures and I don't think it is gonna change. Downtown will continue to be dominated by small condos occupied by singles and childless couples, and 95% of families will still move to their 2000 sf tree lined boring suburbs the minute they have their first born.

I would say the vast majority of people of Asian decent are suburban creatures as well. Over 60,000 Chinese live in Markham. Why aren't they living in small condo's downtown? Vaughan is another place with large growing Asian population. Just think if it wasn't for all these Asians we probably wouldn't have sprawling suburbs like we have today!!
 
Honestly condo fees kill you usually for units 1200+

This really is the key to families not choosing condo living. I have been living in a condo for over a decade; from single life, to married life and now with a child. Now I'm paying rather large condo fees for our 2 + den. I've come to the point where I just can't pay the condo fees anymore. It is killing me. I plan to get out of condo living in the next year or two even though I will be sacrificing the convenience of location. Many others make this decision before they have children. For me it has nothing to do with extra square footage, it is all about what you get for the money you pay each month. I believe if developers could produce buildings with scaled back condo fees (even if there are basically no amenities) families would choose to live there. Many people who work downtown love the convenience of being close to public transit and a shortened commute but it usually comes down to what they will be getting for the money they pay each month. Many people choose the burbs (including the inner burbs) over condo living.
 
gabe, don't feed the troll.

while what kkgg7 says is partly true that NAmerican's standards is mostly based on 'wants' and not 'needs'; gabe's assessment is also quite true.

when the 1990's influx of HK chinese came to TO and noticed how much more space they could have with the same amount of money as their unit in HK, many bought and built McMansions in the burbs.


a comfortable 3 bedroom / 2 bath condo unit all within 1000 sq ft would be more than adequate for family of 3-5:
* good sized and efficient foyer for every day living and ample closet/storage space (20-30 sq ft)
* all bedrooms minimum of 10 ft x 10 ft, all with an exterior window + at least 6 lin ft of closets per room
* good sized kitchen of 80-100 sf with plenty of storage and counterspace
* large 12 ft x 20 ft LR/DR combo


IMO there is a demand for family sized condo, but price and maintenance fees are a big issue.
in dt where new construction prices are around $650+psf, a 1000 sf unit costs around $650K and maintenance fees of at least $500/month, which is enough to cover another $100K mortgage.
so one's decision is do you buy a condo, or go get a freehold with a budget up to $750K which has land and not have the hassles of dealing with as many neighbours, a condo board and rules, etc.

the funny thing is, IMO i don't think condos should be as expensive as freehold since land value is a large missing component.
if anything, condos should have a discount vs. freeholds.
 
I would want:

- large foyer with a closet
- master bedroom at least 12ft x 12ft, with ensuite bath, window and a closet
- 2 bedrooms at least 10ft x 10ft with a window and a closet
- split bedroom plan
- decent size main bath
- a den or a "nook" for a computer desk
- large kitchen (say 10 ft x 10ft) with storage and counterspace
- large open living/dining area (say at least 11ft x 17ft)
- excellent soundproofing
- probably wouldn't want a balcony (maybe a small one from the master only) but a terrace might be a nice to have
- building should have a nice indoor and outdoor play area
 
This really is the key to families not choosing condo living. I have been living in a condo for over a decade; from single life, to married life and now with a child. Now I'm paying rather large condo fees for our 2 + den. I've come to the point where I just can't pay the condo fees anymore. It is killing me. I plan to get out of condo living in the next year or two even though I will be sacrificing the convenience of location. Many others make this decision before they have children. For me it has nothing to do with extra square footage, it is all about what you get for the money you pay each month. I believe if developers could produce buildings with scaled back condo fees (even if there are basically no amenities) families would choose to live there. Many people who work downtown love the convenience of being close to public transit and a shortened commute but it usually comes down to what they will be getting for the money they pay each month. Many people choose the burbs (including the inner burbs) over condo living.

I likewise live in a large unit (over 1300 sq ft) married w/ child, but find space (especially storage) to be more restricting than condo fees but I appreciate that this is the general perception. In my case the fees cover all utilities, cable, building insurance, services and reserve fund (legislated by Ontario law). In a freehold, you wouldn't need to pay services (like security, snow removal, yard maintenance) or reserve fund, but you would be buying in a lesser location which means new costs. You still would be paying for utilities, insurance (the bank will not lend to you without it!), probably things like cable, and you would need cash available for unexpected but costly repairs, but I suppose this is optional if you are ok with your property falling into disrepair.

You would also likely need a second car. That's what breaks the deal for me. The second car alone (capital, insurance, gas, maintenance) would more than cancel any "savings" from doing my own work and not putting aside a repair fund.

Another gotcha is if this "lesser location" is a municipality outside of Toronto, you would be subject to higher residential tax rates. So you really need to do the math if the fees are actually killing you or not.
 
This is not necessarily addressed in the initial question since it is inherent to condo living, is that the monthly fees, to me, buy time that I can spend with my family. Time I don't have to spend my free time doing yardwork, shovelling, ongoing maintenance, etc. I'm willing to pay for that.
 
Similar to greenleaf, I think it's all about value moreso than amenities or design. The cost has to make it worth your while. I really don't see that value in spending 500 000$ plus condo fees on a three-bedroom no den condo when you can get a three-bedroom backyard house somewhere off the subway for just about that or slightly higher. But at 350 000$, I think the condo would make it worth a lot of people's whiles. I know it would for us. We'd happily put the savings into other areas of our life. But for now, the cost of family-sized condos is much too high, and represents veyr poor value when compared to what you get for the same cost (or slightly more) in a house.

Same for condo fees. If condo fees are high but the building has a gym, a pool, outdoor space and indoor playspace, then the value might be there. But if it's a tall box surrounded by other tall boxes with no where to play or lounge or go, with only a few gym machines in a dark room in the basement, well, that can make condo life very stuffy.

In terms of design and amenities I'd say:

- 3 bedrooms, no exceptions
- a den that is a actually a room and not a nook
- 2 washrooms, preferably 2.5
- significant storage (e.g. closets in all bedrooms and the den, linen closet, hall closet, and some sort of other storage accessible from the hall for strollers, boots, other outside stuff)
- a parking space with a locker (or underground storage room)
- on site greenspace for pets or kids

As for balconies/terraces, in my apartment living experience I've never found urban balconies to be particularly useful. Too noisy, too close to neighbours, too small, BBQ issue is iffy, limited light means limited gardening potential ... I'd rather have more indoor space. Even if it's jsuts another closet or a storage nook.

Before we bought our house I looked into buying a condo thinking that we could trade off lack of outdoor and incoor space, more constricted living, and the practicality of a house for reduced cost, and let those savings improve the quality of our life in other areas. Boy were we ever out ot lunch. Three bedroom condos are not only rate, but very expensive. Even moreso when you consider what you get for that cost. It just wasn't affordable, convenient or practical.
 
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Planning policy favour high rise condos which are expensive to build and maintain. If developers were financially encouraged to build midrise units without any amenities (mostly not needed in urban setting as many of these amenities are nearby), then larger units would be more affordadble. The biggest expenses are pools and security guards and maintaining a large buildings infrastructure (elevators, hallways, boiler).

I live in a condo where there are lots of kids of varying ages from newborns to teenagers. Mostly they are kids from immigrant families, many of whom are renting the units. I would agree that the condo fee keeps rising to the point where it is becoming unaffordable to buy a large unit. In my building we have large penthouse units with 3br+den and 1400 sq ft of space, the condo fee: $1100 per month! Add in a mortgage and property taxes and that quickly becomes unaffordable. Especially when one can get a freehold townhouse for similar monthly expense.

While you have to save for repairs, the value tends to go up higher than condos as the increasing fees cause condo values to plateau as the building ages.
 
Unless you have $800,000+ to spend, condos are a tough sell to families.
Developers are cramming three bedrooms into units that should be a two- or even a one-bedroom sized unit just to satisfy Adam Vaughan's guidelines.
Families require more features and amenities than the typical single person or couple, which these days developers are cutting corners to maximize their profits in a hot market.
Townhouse units in condos seem to be more appropriate for families, but again the premiums on those are much more than what a young family could afford.

I think to have a decent family-friendly condo unit for a couple and two young kids it should have the following:

Unit Features:
- Open plan so the kids could be watched from the kitchen.
- Small play room for the kids and their toys (at least 7'x9') -- this could be den that could be closed off when there's guests.
- Split bedroom plan.
- Plenty of closet and storage space.
- For kids under 5 I think having a large enough bedroom for them to share would be fine. Enough for two twin beds, but most likely will have bunk beds. If the family intends on living there long term and the kids reach an age of 8 or so than a third bedroom would be more appropriate as older kids really need their own space.
- At least 2 bathrooms (one having a full-size tub).
- Kitchens with full size appliances, a double sink, and a large pantry.
- Plenty of operable windows for fresh air/ventilation.
- A large enough dining room for a table for 4 that could be extended to 6. Most new condos have a combination living/dining room that could barely fit a proper dining table with living room furniture.
- Sound insulation between units that far exceeds current building standards. Neighbors do not want to hear screaming or crying kids.

Building Amenities:
- At least one parking space close to the elevators.
- Car share spots on site.
- A double-size storage locker.
- A business centre/WiFi lounge so that the parents have somewhere quiet to go to if they need to work from home.
- Visitor parking for guests/grandparents.
- Proper vehicle drop offs at the building entrance.
- Pool would be nice for kids to exercise and have fun.
- Outdoor garden or park space (on site or nearby).
- Close to schools and day care.
- Close to transit.

I agree with most that if you factor in the condo fees and taxes with your mortgage payment, you could afford a house that has a yard, a garage, and most importantly more space.
Tax incentives and/or subsidies for families would encourage more families to consider urban condo living.
Toronto isn't quite Manhattan or Hong Kong where expensive land prices are so expensive that apartment living is the norm for families, but it would be great to plan for that future and encourage developers to think more wisely.
 
The 600-700K price tag for decent family condos in west downtown, along the lines described in above posts, isn't that prohibitive when you consider that the same amount buys only a relatively shabby semi in the area, or areas immediately to the west and north. From that perspective, the option isn't uncompetitive, but this comes down to cultural/personal preferences.
 

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