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Not weak at all. My work for my clients is my business, not yours. The fact that you want to turn this around to be about me appears as nothing more than a means to get off topic.

I have yet to see you back up your opinion with evidence. So consequently, by your own measures you are not being convincing on this topic either.

You made it about yourself when you basically said you work in environmental policy and were trying to say your personal background and experience is more important. If we aren't allowed to ask about your credentials when you throw a statement out like that, you can't possibly come back and say we're trying to make this argument about you.

This theme has been continual throughout the entire discussion. We started with discussing carbon tax, you then change the subject to the validity of global warming on context of man-made terms, then you move away from that and start saying that you're personally involved with environmental policy, and now that we ask what the credentials are you say we're getting personal with you. So now the discussion is all about you, at your own making.

Everytime you lose an argument, you switch gears and bring up another totally irrelevant discussion.
 
On the contrary, you made your experience relevant when you used it, only a few posts ago, as evidence to support your opinion.

My opinion is based on the research done by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That, on top of tens of thousands of other papers, books, and studies is my evidence. What about you? Cite one reputable organization or paper.

So you have read tens of thousands of of papers, books and studies and assert them as your evidence? Tens of thousands? Is that what you are saying?

I've noted that you have not cited any single one of these tens of thousands. I've cited papers on other threads already.

I've read both the third and fourth reports of the UNIPCC. Had you actually looked through the content you would have noted that the report cites a low level of scientific understanding for every natural climate forcing. In other words, they're not too sure how the natural climate works. The IPCC claims a high level of understanding of the two forcings dealing with halocarbons and carbon dioxide. However, the uncertainties alone surrounding aerosols actually exceeds the assumed values of the so-called greenhouse forcings. In addition, the effects of solar wind, solar magnetism and changes in solar UV are not even considered in any of the IPCC reports (and as I am sure you know, the sun drives the climate; everything else follows). What this amounts to is an incredibly incomplete view of terrestrial climate. Yet, in light of this, the IPCC still concludes that they are sure that human emissions of C02 are driving climate. Check it out in your copy of the IPCC-AR4 2007, p. 32.
 
We started with discussing carbon tax, you then change the subject to the validity of global warming on context of man-made terms, then you move away from that and start saying that you're personally involved with environmental policy, and now that we ask what the credentials are you say we're getting personal with you. So now the discussion is all about you, at your own making.

Everytime you lose an argument, you switch gears and bring up another totally irrelevant discussion.

Wow, saying that I have experience in environmental policy means just that. Whether you believe it or not does not matter. You were making comments about green programs; I was acknowledging awareness of those programs. You said that you don't understand my way of thinking because I disagree with your position, and I stated that my position is based on scientific research. Clearly this has gotten under your skin.

The reason why I question the validity of global warming while discussing a carbon is tax is because the policy is directly linked to that issue. The fact that you think such a connection is irrelevant displays your ignorance of the actual issue.
 
Wow, saying that I have experience in environmental policy means just that. Whether you believe it or not does not matter. You were making comments about green programs; I was acknowledging awareness of those programs. You said that you don't understand my way of thinking because I disagree with your position, and I stated that my position is based on scientific research. Clearly this has gotten under your skin.

The reason why I question the validity of global warming while discussing a carbon is tax is because the policy is directly linked to that issue. The fact that you think such a connection is irrelevant displays your ignorance of the actual issue.

Yes, we're all ignorant. Anyway, thank you for being as unclear as you possibly can. All you've done is said you're smarter than anyone else on here and for us to take your word at it. No questions asked.

Well the information and data don't support your opinions, and I'll leave it at that.

The only experience I can rely upon is the fact that when I was at the University of Memphis several years back, I took Geography as my science courses and that's the study of the atmosphere @ UofM, and you bet its also a field that focuses on global warming.

But the data and information have already been presented, you change topics when the information is presented, and we're at this juncture. I'll stick to recommending anyone type in "global warming" at google and wikipedia and read for themselves.

The few people in the science community who dispute global warming and the man-made parts of it are only one of a few people: those with paychecks associated with business causes that want to find reasons not to believe it, and conservative policy workers looking to ignore the science in favor of political ideology. There's few people outside these circles that believe global warming is not being dangerously accelerated with a man-made component. While its not my job to find out your personal life, the fact you won't answer questions is enough for anyone to see.

I've been more than fair in this discussion, I've even said that if the political will and the public's will for a carbon tax does not exist that we should seek other avenues to reduce carbon imprints and fund green technology. I don't know how clear I can be: I want pro-environmental policy to get enacted regardless where it comes from. What I'm not interested in is an arrogant pissing contest where you say you're smart, everyone else is ignorant, and we just need to take your word.

For crying out loud, the rest of us aren't a bunch of morons. Some of us do have atmospheric studies under our belt. While I didn't get beyond Geography 1020 and 1030, I did spend a year learning about the atmosphere which is more than most people.

Save your condescending attitude for someone who cares.
 
The only experience I can rely upon is the fact that when I was at the University of Memphis several years back, I took Geography as my science courses and that's the study of the atmosphere @ UofM, and you bet its also a field that focuses on global warming.

Curious as to why you missed so many salient points then. Have you perused any of the IPCC reports?
 
I'm only going to focus on the data at this point.

The IPCC has been invoked, and why not go to the source? The IPCC and Al Gore won a Nobel prize for awareness on global warming, so if anyone wants to invoke their studies I'll be glad to show a link.

http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-syr.htm

And in the Policymaker's Summary sheet it shows the following:

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr_spm.pdf

From Page 1:

Eleven of the last twelve years (1995-2006) rank among
the twelve warmest years in the instrumental record of global
surface temperature (since 1850). The 100-year linear trend
(1906-2005) of 0.74 [0.56 to 0.92]°C1 is larger than the corresponding
trend of 0.6 [0.4 to 0.8]°C (1901-2000) given in
the Third Assessment Report (TAR) (Figure SPM.1). The temperature
increase is widespread over the globe and is greater
at higher northern latitudes. Land regions have warmed faster
than the oceans (Figures SPM.2, SPM.4). {1.1, 1.2}

Rising sea level is consistent with warming (Figure
SPM.1). Global average sea level has risen since 1961 at an
average rate of 1.8 [1.3 to 2.3] mm/yr and since 1993 at 3.1
[2.4 to 3.8] mm/yr, with contributions from thermal expansion,
melting glaciers and ice caps, and the polar ice sheets.
Whether the faster rate for 1993 to 2003 reflects decadal variation
or an increase in the longer-term trend is unclear. {1.1}

Observed decreases in snow and ice extent are also consistent
with warming (Figure SPM.1). Satellite data since 1978
show that annual average Arctic sea ice extent has shrunk by
2.7 [2.1 to 3.3]% per decade, with larger decreases in summer
of 7.4 [5.0 to 9.8]% per decade. Mountain glaciers and snow
cover on average have declined in both hemispheres.

It is very likely that over the past 50 years: cold days, cold
nights and frosts have become less frequent over most land
areas, and hot days and hot nights have become more frequent.
It is likely that: heat waves have become more frequent over
most land areas, the frequency of heavy precipitation events
has increased over most areas, and since 1975 the incidence
of extreme high sea level3 has increased worldwide. {1.1}

There is observational evidence of an increase in intense
tropical cyclone activity in the North Atlantic since about 1970,
with limited evidence of increases elsewhere. There is no clear
trend in the annual numbers of tropical cyclones. It is difficult
to ascertain longer-term trends in cyclone activity, particularly
prior to 1970. {1.1}

Average Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the
second half of the 20th century were very likely higher than
during any other 50-year period in the last 500 years and likely
the highest in at least the past 1300 years. {1.1}

On Page 2:

Of the more than 29,000 observational data series, from
75 studies, that show significant change in many physical and
biological systems, more than 89% are consistent with the
direction of change expected as a response to warming


As far as the cause of global climate change, here are quotes from page 5, Section 2 of the paper:

Global GHG emissions due to human activities have
grown since pre-industrial times, with an increase of
70% between 1970 and 2004 (Figure SPM.3).5 {2.1}

Global atmospheric concentrations of CO2, methane
(CH4) and nitrous oxide (N2O) have increased markedly
as a result of human activities since 1750 and now far
exceed pre-industrial values determined from ice cores
spanning many thousands of years. {2.2}

Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures
since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the
observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations.
7 It is likely that there has been significant anthropogenic
warming over the past 50 years averaged over
each continent (except Antarctica) (Figure SPM.4). {2.4}


If anyone is interested in detail they can click the links and read the reports straight from the IPCC, an organization that is very much politically correct in its statements, and does not say "very likely" with a grain of salt.

What the data do show is that there is an exponential degree of rising sea level growing exponentially. We are melting 3x the amount of ice and sea levels are rising 3x the level of just a decade ago. At this rate, it will accelerate significantly unless we do something.

Also, the key points in this discussion are that the IPCC data conclude:

A) Global Warming is real, and the averages don't tell all. The average temperature at the equator may not change that much, but at the poles the temperatures have changed significantly.

B) Global warming has predominantly a man-made component that comes from our use of carbon sources of pollutants

These are two key points the IPCC data suggest out of tens of thousands of scientific surveys.

Yes, there are a few, and only a few, of these studies and surveys that conflict the information with other data, but the actual evidence is overwhelming in favor of man-made global warming as the problem we face.
 
What kills me about all this is the "gas prices are too high already" argument. If gas prices were low, the industry would say this would kill them, as they aren't making enough money, and if the product was taxed more, they would make less. You can't have it both ways.

And yes, most economists would argue that consumption taxes should be raised, and income taxes lowered, as lower income taxes have more of a tendency to increase savings rates, which is good. That was a long sentence.
 
...and would you care to share this scientific research with us?

As I have noted, I have already posted citations.

My opinion is based on the research done by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That, on top of tens of thousands of other papers, books, and studies is my evidence. What about you? Cite one reputable organization or paper.

Maybe you'd like to post some citations of the tens of thousands of papers, books and studies you have read?
 
As I have noted, I have already posted citations.

Where? Point them out, or post them again.

Maybe you'd like to post some citations of the tens of thousands of papers, books and studies you have read?

Come on, that's an incredibly weak argument. You do this every time. Whenever somebody asks you to, once and for all, post even a smidgen of research supporting your position, you try the playground approach of "Why don't you do it?" Well, we have done it, as you can see a handful of posts above. I can guarantee you haven't read tens of thousands of papers that support your position, because they don't exist. There is also nothing wrong with reading many papers that synthesize information from many others.
 
I'm only going to focus on the data at this point.

The IPCC has been invoked, and why not go to the source? The IPCC and Al Gore won a Nobel prize for awareness on global warming, so if anyone wants to invoke their studies I'll be glad to show a link.

Have you read anything beyond the Summary for Policy Makers? Anyway, you should know that the IPCC does not actually study anything, it is a committee that collects studies that supports its stated view that humans cause climate change.

Throughout the report, the IPCC lists a considerable number of uncertainties with respect to its own high confidence. The listing of these uncertainties can be found throughout the AFAR IPCC 2007 (you have to go beyond the SPM), particularly in the chapters dealing with their selection of evidence to support their contention of the primacy of human causes. Some of the uncertainties briefly outlined in the Technical Summary of the AFAR are shown below.

The relative blandness of many of these stated uncertainties here and throughout the IPCC AFAR 2007 can obscure the fact that there is a considerable lack of understanding concerning the climate, and that as a result, scenario projections are actually very poor when employed as a means to predicting the future. Once again, the IPCC indicates a very low level of scientific understanding with respect to natural causes for climate variability. That statement is absolutely crucial in that global temperature changes over the past 100 years have been dwarfed by earlier historical variations in temperature, and that this noted change in global temperature falls well within the mean of the past 4,000 years.

Of course the IPCC pays attention to only its own consideration for what constitutes an uncertainty, but they are considerable. Also, the document does not contain either any dissenting reports from its member scientists (and there are critical members of the IPCC); nor does it acknowledge direct criticism concerning its main assumption of change in climate due only - or primarily - to human activity.

IPCC uncertainties concerning changes in human and natural drivers of climate (p.81):

The full range of processes leading to modification of cloud properties by aerosols is not well understood and the magnitudes of associated indirect radiative effects are poorly determined.

The causes of, and radiative forcing due to stratospheric water vapour changes are not well quantified.

The geographical distribution and time evolution of the radiative forcing due to changes in aerosols during the 20th century are not well characterised.

The causes of recent changes in the growth rate of atmospheric CH4 are not well understood.

The roles of different factors increasing tropospheric ozone concentrations since pre-industrial times are not well characterised.

Land surface properties and land-atmosphere interactions that lead to radiative forcing are not well quantified.

Knowledge of the contribution of past solar changes to radiative forcing on the time scale of centuries is not based upon direct measurements and is hence strongly dependent upon physical understanding.

IPCC uncertainties concerning observations of changes in climate in the atmosphere and on the surface (p.82):

Radiosonde records are much less complete spatially than surface records and evidence suggests a number of radiosonde records are unreliable, especially in the tropics. It is likely that all records of tropospheric temperature trends still contain residual errors.

While changes in large-scale atmospheric circulation are apparent, the quality of analyses is best only after 1979, making analysis of, and discrimination between, change and variability difficult.

Surface and satellite observations disagree on total and low-level cloud changes over the ocean.

Multi-decadal changes in DTR are not well understood, in part because of limited observations of changes in cloudiness and aerosols.

Difficulties in the measurement of precipitation remain an area of concern in quantifying trends in global and regional precipitation.

Records of soil moisture and streamflow are often very short, and are available for only a few regions, which impedes complete analyses of changes in droughts.

The availability of observational data restricts the types of extremes that can be analysed. The rarer the event, the more difficult it is to identify long-term changes because there are fewer cases available.

Information on hurricane frequency and intensity is limited prior to the satellite era. There are questions about the interpretation of the satellite record.

There is insufficient evidence to determine whether trends exist in tornadoes, hail, lightning and dust storms at small spatial scales.



IPCC uncertainties concerning snow, ice and frozen ground (p.83):
There is no global compilation of in situ snow data prior to 1960. Well-calibrated snow water equivalent data are not available for the satellite era.

There are insufficient data to draw any conclusions about trends in the thickness of Antarctic sea ice.

Uncertainties in estimates of glacier mass loss arise from limited global inventory data, incomplete area-volume relationships and imbalance in geographic coverage.

Mass balance estimates for ice shelves and ice sheets, especially for Antarctica, are limited by calibration and validation of changes detected by satellite altimetry and gravity measurements.

Limited knowledge of basal processes and of ice shelf dynamics leads to large uncertainties in the understanding of ice flow processes and ice sheet stability.

IPCC uncertainties concerning oceans and sea levels (p. 84):

Limitations in ocean sampling imply that decadal variability in global heat content, salinity and sea level changes can only be evaluated with moderate confidence.

There is low confidence in observations of trends in the MOC.

Global average sea level rise from 1961 to 2003 appears to be larger than can be explained by thermal expansion and land ice melting.


IPCC uncertainties in the paleoclimate record with respect to the IPCC presentation (p.85):

Mechanisms of onset and evolution of past abrupt climate change and associated climate thresholds are not well understood. This limits confidence in the ability of climate models to simulate realistic abrupt change.

The degree to which ice sheets retreated in the past, the rates of such change and the processes involved are not well known.

Knowledge of climate variability over more than the last few hundred years in the SH and tropics is limited by the lack of palaeoclimatic records.

Differing amplitudes and variability observed in available millennial-length NH temperature reconstructions, as well as the relation of these differences to choice of proxy data and statistical calibration methods, still need to be reconciled.

The lack of extensive networks of proxy data for temperature in the last 20 years limits understanding of how such proxies respond to rapid global warming and of the influence of other environmental changes.


IPCC uncertainties in the attributing climate change to human activity (p.86):

Confidence in attributing some climate change phenomena to anthropogenic influences is currently limited by uncertainties in radiative forcing, as well as uncertainties in feedbacks and in observations.

Attribution at scales smaller than continental and over time scales of less than 50 years is limited by larger climate variability on smaller scales, by uncertainties in the small-scale details of external forcing and the response simulated by models, as well as uncertainties in simulation of internal variability on small scales, including in relation to modes of variability.

There is less confidence in understanding of forced changes in precipitation and surface pressure than there is of temperature.

The range of attribution statements is limited by the absence of formal detection and attribution studies, or their very limited number, for some phenomena (e.g., some types of extreme events).

Incomplete global data sets for extremes analysis and model uncertainties still restrict the regions and types of detection studies of extremes that can be performed.

Despite improved understanding, uncertainties in model simulated internal climate variability limit some aspects of attribution studies. For example, there are apparent discrepancies between estimates of ocean heat content variability from models and observations.

Lack of studies quantifying the contributions of anthropogenic forcing to ocean heat content increase or glacier melting together with the open part of the sea level budget for 1961 to 2003 are among the uncertainties in quantifying the anthropogenic contribution to sea level rise.


IPCC uncertainties with respect to their modeling of future climate (p.87):

A proven set of model metrics comparing simulations with observations, that might be used to narrow the range of plausible climate projections, has yet to be developed.

Most models continue to have difficulty controlling climate drift, particularly in the deep ocean. This drift must be accounted for when assessing change in many oceanic variables.

Models differ considerably in their estimates of the strength of different feedbacks in the climate system.

Problems remain in the simulation of some modes of variability, notably the Madden-Julian Oscillation, recurrent atmospheric blocking and extreme precipitation.

Systematic biases have been found in most models’ simulations of the Southern Ocean that are linked to uncertainty in transient climate response.

Climate models remain limited by the spatial resolution that can be achieved with present computer resources, by the need for more extensive ensemble runs and by the need to include some additional processes.

IPCC uncertainties concerning climate equilibrium and transient climate sensitivity (p.88):

Large uncertainties remain about how clouds might respond to global climate change.

A proven set of model metrics comparing simulations with observations, that might be used to narrow the range of plausible climate projections, has yet to be developed.

Most models continue to have difficulty controlling climate drift, particularly in the deep ocean. This drift must be accounted for when assessing change in many oceanic variables.

Models differ considerably in their estimates of the strength of different feedbacks in the climate system.

Problems remain in the simulation of some modes of variability, notably the Madden-Julian Oscillation, recurrent atmospheric blocking and extreme precipitation.

Systematic biases have been found in most models’ simulations of the Southern Ocean that are linked to uncertainty in transient climate response.

Climate models remain limited by the spatial resolution that can be achieved with present computer resources, by the need for more extensive ensemble runs and by the need to include some additional processes.


IPCC uncertainties concerning global projections (p.89):
The likelihood of a large abrupt change in the MOC beyond the end of the 21st century cannot yet be assessed reliably. For low and medium emission scenarios with atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations stabilized beyond 2100, the MOC recovers from initial weakening within one to several centuries. A permanent reduction in the MOC cannot be excluded if the forcing is strong and long enough.

The model projections for extremes of precipitation show larger ranges in amplitude and geographical locations than for temperature.

The response of some major modes of climate variability such as ENSO still differs from model to model, which may be associated with differences in the spatial and temporal representation of present-day conditions.

The robustness of many model responses of tropical cyclones to climate change is still limited by the resolution of typical climate models.

Changes in key processes that drive some global and regional climate changes are poorly known (e.g., ENSO, NAO, blocking, MOC, land surface feedbacks, tropical cyclone distribution).

The magnitude of future carbon cycle feedbacks is still poorly determined.

Uncertainties concerning sea levels, according to the IPCC (p.90):

Models do not yet exist that address key processes that could contribute to large rapid dynamical changes in the Antarctic and Greenland Ice Sheets that could increase the discharge of ice into the ocean.

The sensitivity of ice sheet surface mass balance (melting and precipitation) to global climate change is not well constrained by observations and has a large spread in models. There is consequently a large uncertainty in the magnitude of global warming that, if sustained, would lead to the elimination of the Greenland Ice Sheet.

Key uncertainties concerning regional projections (p.90):

In some regions there has been only very limited study of key aspects of regional climate change, particularly with regard to extreme events.

Atmosphere-Ocean General Circulation Models show no consistency in simulated regional precipitation change in some key regions (e.g., northern South America, northern
Australia and the Sahel).

In many regions where fine spatial scales in climate are generated by topography, there is insufficient information on how climate change will be expressed at these scales.

MOC: Meridional Overturning Circulation: an overturning circulation of the ocean.

ENSO: El Nino-Southern Oscillation: a coupled ocean-atmosphere phenomenon (IPCC models have consistently failed to predict changes to the naturally-appearing ENSO).

NAO: North Atlantic Oscillation: an ocean oscillation.

DTR: Diurnal temperature range: the difference between the maximum and minimum temperature during a 24-hour period.
 
What kills me about all this is the "gas prices are too high already" argument. If gas prices were low, the industry would say this would kill them, as they aren't making enough money, and if the product was taxed more, they would make less. You can't have it both ways.

And yes, most economists would argue that consumption taxes should be raised, and income taxes lowered, as lower income taxes have more of a tendency to increase savings rates, which is good. That was a long sentence.

Oil companies have been making money since 1850. The first use of their products was for indoor lighting. One of the waste products was a fluid that was close to what we refer to as gasoline. The dumping of this "waste" product actually lead to some of the first environmental laws.

In the past, low oil prices have made access to sources like the Alberta oil sands uneconomical. Since the price increases of the 1970's (and OPEC), most oil companies have been quite viable. These price increases made access to many of Alberta's oil sources economical. Higher prices would make access to the vast American shale oil reserves economically viable, as well.

The problem is not a consumption tax. The GST and the PST already apply to gasoline, along with other taxes. The issue here is that a carbon tax is supposed to be applied to fuel in order to address worries over climate change. However, the funds from such a tax would end up in general revenue where they would do little to address the actual problem defined by the Liberals.

Any commensurate drop in something like the income tax would simply allow the carbon tax to be more affordable by the middle class car owners and up. But as the increase in the price of fuel makes its way to every other aspect of the economy, that would more likely affect low income earners who are not going to see any significant benefits of a drop in income tax.

Any rejigging of the tax system to apply more tax to hydrocarbons, while at the same time lowering other forms of taxation, does not make fuel less affordable for certain income earners more likely to be driving cars. That means that it can't be counted on to be a useful means of changing consumer habits. Even the present jumps in oil prices have not dropped fuel consumption to any degree near the numbers necessary to meet Canada's Kyoto numbers. It's quite unlikely that this tax would do anything like that. It's window dressing.

All of this remains theoretical anyway as the Liberals have yet to put forward any clear details or numbers. Suffice to say, when one throws together a new tax plus a tax reduction, it should be fairly clear they won't expect consumption to drop significantly - otherwise their revenues would drop and they could no longer afford an income tax cut.
 
Uncertainties. Of course, in any predictive science there is uncertainty. The IPCC (and yes, we are all aware of what it is) is open about all of the uncertainties in the science. Nevertheless, it has clearly demonstrated that on the balance of probabilities, there is significant anthropogenic global warming. So basically, what you are telling us is that because scientists are unable to predict the future with absolute certainty, we should completely ignore the evidence of anthropogenic global warming and go on as usual? Until...when? Until catastrophic global warming has already occurred, it's too late to do anything, and we can finally be 100% certain?

Uncertainties in a predictive science? Is that the best you've got?

The problem is not a consumption tax. The GST and the PST already apply to gasoline, along with other taxes. The issue here is that a carbon tax is supposed to be applied to fuel in order to address worries over climate change. However, the funds from such a tax would end up in general revenue where they would do little to address the actual problem defined by the Liberals.

You may have worked in environmental policy, but you certainly don't seem to have spent too much time on economic policy. When you raise the price of a good (even a somewhat inelastic one like gasoline), consumption goes down. That's the first day of first year economics. Now, if you want to achieve a desired reduction in consumption (presumably balanced with the economic cost), it's simply a matter of calibrating the price increase. Remember that the price elasticity of a good is always relative. With a sufficiently large increase in price, demand for any good will go down. It just depends by how much.
 
Come on, that's an incredibly weak argument. You do this every time. Whenever somebody asks you to, once and for all, post even a smidgen of research supporting your position, you try the playground approach of "Why don't you do it?" Well, we have done it, as you can see a handful of posts above. I can guarantee you haven't read tens of thousands of papers that support your position, because they don't exist. There is also nothing wrong with reading many papers that synthesize information from many others.

Here's what you said earlier:
My opinion is based on the research done by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. That, on top of tens of thousands of other papers, books, and studies is my evidence.

It's a game you would play. If I post five; you'd want ten. If I post five more, then you would want more after that. You would not read them either. But as noted, you have not posted any research, nor any of the tens of thousands of papers, books and studies you now claim to not have read. I never made any such claim to have read tens of thousands of books, papers or studies; that was your earlier assertion alone, unimaginative.

How about this: rather than having me waste my time in this game and you don't read, why don't you open your mind? Why don't you read beyond your beliefs?. We both now know that you have not read tens of thousands of books, papers and so on on this topic. So instead, find research, books or studies that would present a contrarian view for you, and try reading it. After all, if we are to be informed citizens, it always helps to look at both sides of an argument, don't you think? I've read from "both sides" if you will, and I do so by my own decision. I feel that it is my obligation as both an individual and a citizen to understand these things. I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that others should try and do the same.
 
Uncertainties. Of course, in any predictive science there is uncertainty. The IPCC (and yes, we are all aware of what it is) is open about all of the uncertainties in the science. Nevertheless, it has clearly demonstrated that on the balance of probabilities, there is significant anthropogenic global warming. So basically, what you are telling us is that because scientists are unable to predict the future with absolute certainty, we should completely ignore the evidence of anthropogenic global warming and go on as usual? Until...when? Until catastrophic global warming has already occurred, it's too late to do anything, and we can finally be 100% certain?

Uncertainties in a predictive science? Is that the best you've got?

Based on historical study, there is clear evidence that previous variations in globally averaged temperature have been far more significant than what has been (supposedly) observed over the last century. This is true not only over thousands or years, but hundreds of years as well. We can call that earlier variation "natural" if you wish. Because this is so, there is no way to distinguish whether the averaged 0.6C increase in globally averaged temperature is any different from natural changes. That being said, this noted temperature shift falls well within the variability in global temperature over the last four thousand years. It was warmer before that.

There are nice correlations that match changes in global temperature to shifts in ocean oscillations. There are also nice correlations to solar changes. Why should these far more significant and far more powerful drivers of climate be ignored as possible explanations? If you look at the data from satellites and match it to C02 levels for the last ten years, you would not see any correlation. Global temperatures have flatlined (and slightly dropped in the last year) while C02 increased. If anything, these "uncertainties" beg more research rather than offering up easy conclusions. The simple fact is that natural climate drivers have a longer, more significant and far more easily recognized impact on global temperature variation. Even the IPCC notes natural climate variability over the last 100 years. If they can, why can't you?


Do you want to increasingly build tax and energy policy on the basis of such massive uncertainty over human impact? Or would you rather build energy policy on the basis that access to inexpensive oil grows ever less each passing year, has and will have a considerable geopolitical impact, and that cheap energy is an essential cornerstone to our way of life? My concern is with the latter.
 

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