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hawc

hawc

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*** EDIT *** This question is only in regards to road and infrastructure construction. Not private condos.

I hear lots of people complain that projects drag on way too long in Toronto compared to other cities.

People not only complain about the amount of construction, but that it shouldn't take as long as it does to get done.

Any merit to this?

Do crews in Toronto work a lot slower and stretch the work out longer than other cities? Are projects understaffed? Should they be working 24/7?

Or is this a perfectly normal pace compared to other cities?

I know the answer may vary by project, but generalize. What do you generally feel?
 
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outside of China, Toronto follows a pretty normal standard for construction times. Areas like Madrid that manage shorter construction times do so because of the design of their systems which are fundamentally different than Toronto..
 
innsertnamehere said:
outside of China, Toronto follows a pretty normal standard for construction times. Areas like Madrid that manage shorter construction times do so because of the design of their systems which are fundamentally different than Toronto..
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20 years ago the cost and quality of quick-dry cement prohibited fast build times. So there was a reason for the slow speed of building (the cement needed the week to cure before another level could be built).

China is one of the leaders in utilizing the advancements in chemical engineering and cement (plus the sheer number of workers). When they are digging a hole for a building I've seen 6 machines working away, not just 1 or 2. And then for the larger building they can have up to 4 cranes (one on each side of the building).

Having all of these machines does create inefficiencies and project management challanges. But nothing that can't be overcome.

I think the office buildings in Toronto are built at a reasonable speed. The developer does has an incentive to earn rent on it as quickly as possible.

But the condo developments, where is there an incentive for the develper to speed up the project? They already have 20% down and will get paid if the build it in 1 year or 10. The only thing they lose is the interest on the construction loan (and in this rate environment that's pretty low)
 
Some public projects seem to take an amazingly long time and suffer from scope creep, but they're often needing to manage many varied goals and stakeholders, they're rehabilitations that don't have the liberty of clearcutting the site like many commercial projects.

The One Bloor project has appeared to grow at a steady rapid rate. Didn't they have a new project management system where every aspect of construction and delivery has been calculated? Seems to be working well there.
 
muller877 said:
20 years ago the cost and quality of quick-dry cement prohibited fast build times. So there was a reason for the slow speed of building (the cement needed the week to cure before another level could be built).

China is one of the leaders in utilizing the advancements in chemical engineering and cement (plus the sheer number of workers). When they are digging a hole for a building I've seen 6 machines working away, not just 1 or 2. And then for the larger building they can have up to 4 cranes (one on each side of the building).

Having all of these machines does create inefficiencies and project management challanges. But nothing that can't be overcome.

I think the office buildings in Toronto are built at a reasonable speed. The developer does has an incentive to earn rent on it as quickly as possible.

But the condo developments, where is there an incentive for the develper to speed up the project? They already have 20% down and will get paid if the build it in 1 year or 10. The only thing they lose is the interest on the construction loan (and in this rate environment that's pretty low)
Click to expand...

I agree with this.
I am also impressed by the speed of Toronto's office building construction. Condos, not so much. Some are extremely slow by any standards (I walk by the 21 Dundas Square condo all the time, and there is usually minimum activity). And is the L tower completed yet? The past bit seems taking forever.

When the 6 stop Spadina extension in the suburbs is taking 6 years to finish, the short YTZ tunnel taking 3 years, plus all the delay associated with Union station and expected 12 year construction for Eglinton, keep arguing we are not doing things slow sounds a bit silly to me. But I am sure people will always keep saying "oh, this and that is different, so it must make sense".

And let's not even start with the fountain at University/Queen, the John St "revitalization",
 
ksun said:
I agree with this.
I am also impressed by the speed of Toronto's office building construction. Condos, not so much. Some are extremely slow by any standards (I walk by the 21 Dundas Square condo all the time, and there is usually minimum activity). And is the L tower completed yet? The past bit seems taking forever.

When the 6 stop Spadina extension in the suburbs is taking 6 years to finish, the short YTZ tunnel taking 3 years, plus all the delay associated with Union station and expected 12 year construction for Eglinton, keep arguing we are not doing things slow sounds a bit silly to me. But I am sure people will always keep saying "oh, this and that is different, so it must make sense".

And let's not even start with the fountain at University/Queen, the John St "revitalization",
Click to expand...

12 years of construction for Eglinton? ECLRT is scheduled to open in 5 years. We could have probably opened it sooner with more funding.
 
Eglinton is scheduled to open towards the end of 2020, so 6 years away still. Construction will take 9 years though, not 12.

Spadina started in 2009 I believe, so it will be 8 years of construction, which is pretty standard for a subway. 7-8 years is what it typically takes. Scarborough is supposed to take 7 years, 2016 - 2023. Sheppard took 8 years, 1994-2002.
 
innsertnamehere said:
Eglinton is scheduled to open towards the end of 2020, so 6 years away still. Construction will take 9 years though, not 12.
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The primary construction contract has yet to be awarded; the contract isn't expected to be finalized until mid-2015. All that has been constructed so far are the relatively small tunnel and portal contracts.

The project won't be established until the contract is awarded. Personally, I really doubt it can be done in 5 years. Particularly Eglinton station, which I think is yet another contract, that they haven't even started tendering yet.

I'd expect Finch West, and perhaps even Sheppard East, to open first.
 
innsertnamehere said:
Eglinton is scheduled to open towards the end of 2020, so 6 years away still. Construction will take 9 years though, not 12.

Spadina started in 2009 I believe, so it will be 8 years of construction, which is pretty standard for a subway. 7-8 years is what it typically takes. Scarborough is supposed to take 7 years, 2016 - 2023. Sheppard took 8 years, 1994-2002.
Click to expand...

Standard for us...slow for Asia.

For example, Shenzhen Metro is building line 11. It's 50km and 17 stops (higher speed then the average subway). I beleive some is elevated....but the first phase will be open in 2015 and the final phase in 2016...3 and 4 years from the start of construction.

How do they do it quick. Simple answer...a rip the bandaid off approach to construction. Quick and painful. Unlike Sheppard which took forever for cut and cover they do cut and cover quick. Close off one block of the street (no access for residents), dig it, pour concrete and then cover....24x7. The residents/store owners can't get in or out for the week or two that the construction is in front of their house but then it's over.

We would spend 5x as long (and probably the same multiple of money) so that the variety store could have a sidewalk and parking in front of their building for the 9 years construction was occurring. Instead have them shut down for 2 weeks.
 
In a cab yesterday from MTCC to Parliament, and noticed that Union Station is still nowhere near completion. How long is that project taking? We're remodeling a train station, not building an engineering miracle.
 
I actually find the years of design/EA/study before construction starts more frustrating that the actual construction.

I realize that much of it must happen no matter what, but still, as someone interested in this stuff, it's the years of waiting for studies that frustrate me more, because when construction is happening, I feel like progress is being made. Before construction starts, I'm always worried that the given thing will be cancelled and the 3-5 years of work on design/studies will be wasted anyways.

Scarborough subway: 5 years between approval and construction
Finch & Sheppard LRTs: was last approved in 2012, studies should already be done. Yet construction starts in 2016? 4 years.

I'm pretty happy Eglinton is actually under construction, because... something's actually being built!
 
There is a vacate lot at the corner of Weston & Jane that has been empty for maybe 20 years. Every few years, they clear-cut the wild growing trees and scrubs.
 
As long as we built twin tunnels, subways will take longer to be built.

Not working a 7/24 time frame will cause longer time line all around.

Not having everyone on the same page when construction get underway will cause delays.

With the change to the EA Act, time frame for doing an EA is now shorter and less hoops to jump through to complete it.

In some cases, it better to close roads down 100% so construction can be done at a faster rate.

Having good on site management is a must and willing to do things on the fly than wait for upper management decisions. Even upper management needs to be a lot better than it is now.

Yes, some things take far to long than they did 10-20 years ago.

Not telling drivers and NIMBY were to go while construction is underway doesn't help things when changes are made because of them.

Contractors and developers need to do more thinking outside the box how to get things done faster in a safety way.
 
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