[MisterF]

What I was getting at was if stop spacing was in the neighbourhood of 1-2 km you will still need local transit service, much in the same way that both Yonge and Sheppard lines have local bus routes. If a streetcar service already exists and you are tunnelling, then what is the point of ripping up the track and replacing it with a bus? you won't be able to just cut local streetcar service, especially where densities are much higher than suburban rapid transit routes.

You could probably reduce frequencies to 15 minutes, but the service will still need to be provided.

1-2 km station spacing with 15 minute service? Sounds like GO train service to me. What's the point of building a subway line that doesn't provide decent local service, duplicates existing lines (which are being upgraded to provide frequent all day service), and keeps existing streetcars in place? It would be a colossal waste of money and would do nothing to improve transportation downtown. A downtown subway should provide local service first and foremost, and if it connects to Bloor people would naturally take whichever line is more convenient for them. A Pape to downtown DRL would have no trouble attracting riders.

 

[nfitz]

A Pape to downtown DRL would have no trouble attracting riders.

No trouble ... that's an understatement. Metrolinx's modelling showed it carrying more people than the Bloor-Danforth line.

 

[BMoney]

1-2 km station spacing with 15 minute service? Sounds like GO train service to me. What's the point of building a subway line that doesn't provide decent local service, duplicates existing lines (which are being upgraded to provide frequent all day service), and keeps existing streetcars in place? It would be a colossal waste of money and would do nothing to improve transportation downtown. A downtown subway should provide local service first and foremost, and if it connects to Bloor people would naturally take whichever line is more convenient for them. A Pape to downtown DRL would have no trouble attracting riders.

The point of such a subway line would be to improve commutes for people in the inner suburbs, not people downtown who are fairly well serviced with streetcars already. A few minor upgrades to the streetcar network (such as streetcar lanes, and stop rationalization) would do wonders for people on the existing network. Building a dedicated downtown subway wouldn't be the wisest use of funds, especially when you seem to imply that we get rid of the streetcars afterwards. A good transit system offers layers of different services, instead of one-size-fits-all transit, which unfortunately seem to be what the TTC is good at.

No trouble ... that's an understatement. Metrolinx's modelling showed it carrying more people than the Bloor-Danforth line.

I have a hard time believing that. Pape to downtown is just going to be another Sheppard unless you run it north along Don Mills towards Fairview. Rush hour passenger disembarkings on Yonge are fairly evenly divided from College southwards - no matter how you route the line, you're going to screw over half the targeted riders - either the students and public servants going to College/Dundas, or the bankers and lawyers down to Queen/King/Union. The half screwed over are just going to continue piling onto Yonge even after a DRL, instead of transferring twice - Danforth riders are already diverting to University for King/Union, so the crowding clearly isn't that much of a disincentive.

Why not extend the Spadina line downtown as it was originally proposed? - south on Spadina then east on either King/Wellington/Front towards St. Lawrence and the West Don Lands, then bring back the Y? This way, operations on Spadina (which sees the fewest passengers) can be segregated, and everyone gets a direct ride downtown?

 

[nfitz]

I have a hard time believing that. Pape to downtown is just going to be another Sheppard unless you run it north along Don Mills towards Fairview.

Even just from Pape to downtown would be significantly higher Sheppard.

The Metrolinx configuration was Pape to Dundas West ... and BD had more total passengers because it will still be a longer line (I use Danforth frequently, and see a lot of people heading westbound get off before Pape). Metrolinx's 2031 (big move completed) numbers (ignoring the GO services) were

Annual Riders:
YUS - 217.5 million
B-D - 143.5 million
DRL - 117.1 million
Eglinton LRT - 62.7 million
Hurontario LRT - 56 million
Don Mills - 39.4 million
Viva Highway 7 - 31.5 million
SRT - 31.2 million
Waterfront West LRT - 29.2 million
Finch West LRT - 23.2 million
Sheppard Subway - 20.8 million

The Peak point (peak hour per direction) value were:
YUS - 25,400
DRL - 17,500
B-D - 16,400
Eglinton LRT - 7,800
SRT - 6,400
Sheppard Subway - 5,900
Hurontario LRT - 5,500
Waterfront West LRT - 5,200
Don Mills - 5,000
Finch West LRT - 4,500
Viva Highway 7 - 3,100

 

[andrewpmk]

I would be absolutely amazed if the DRL from Pape to Queen/University would have lower ridership than the existing Sheppard. If the entire length of the DRL that I am proposing (Queen/Roncesvalles to Finch/Don Mills) were built, as I think is needed, it could easily match or surpass ridership on YUS.

Also I think that Queen is a good place for the DRL to pass through, because it relieves the overcrowded King/Queen/Dundas streetcars, and serves the north end of the financial district. The south end of the financial district will be served by GO services. Remember we do not want everyone who currently uses Yonge to use the DRL, or it will become as overcrowded as the Yonge line is now! The point is to suck up people using the Yonge line coming from the northeastern suburbs so that they do not have to use the Yonge line to get downtown anymore.

 

[BMoney]

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that the DRL was going to get lower ridership than Sheppard - just that it will be underutilized, similar to how many people criticise Sheppard for being a white elephant. On balance, a Pape/Downtown only DRL will be underutilized, while Yonge will still remain hopelessly overcrowded (as it always will). The DRL on the Metrolinx plan isn't going to divert as many riders as it thinks unless it is through-routed with the existing BD, or extends well north of BD. The Western DRL to Dundas West would perform better, as there's a much larger savings there compared to Pape.

Just adding my 2 cents on the pages and pages of debate on alignment, but Queen is probably the worst candidate for a DRL - it's the least busy of all the downtown stations (both Queen & Osgoode), and doesn't connect either Ryerson or the Financial District well, without a long walk. What's wrong with routing more stuff through Union along Front?? - It's clearly a transit hub, permitting great TTC/GO/VIA/ARL connections, and recent development downtown suggests that the centre of gravity of all the towers is moving closer to Union, as opposed to King & Bay.

Streetcars would still work well on King/Queen/Dundas, as long as we have the political will to separate them from car traffic on dedicated lanes.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The line should be full. Bloor-Union-Pape on Queen. No more half projects.

 

[kkgg7]

Just adding my 2 cents on the pages and pages of debate on alignment, but Queen is probably the worst candidate for a DRL - it's the least busy of all the downtown stations (both Queen & Osgoode), and doesn't connect either Ryerson or the Financial District well, without a long walk. What's wrong with routing more stuff through Union along Front?? - It's clearly a transit hub, permitting great TTC/GO/VIA/ARL connections, and recent development downtown suggests that the centre of gravity of all the towers is moving closer to Union, as opposed to King & Bay.

What are you talking about. Queen/Jarvis for example, is only 400 meter from Ryerson, even closer to George Brown. Yonge/Queen is 500 meters from King/Bay. There are several highrise office building near Yonge/Dundas as well within a sheer of 5 minutes walk. 1 Dundas, 250 Yonge, Bell Trinity etc.

It will be a mistake to use Union as a DRL hub as it is way to the south edge of the CBD. Additionally, a Queen line will be busy all day due to the retail business, which means higher ridership, than a line on Front st. Having Union station on Front st was already a mistake. let's not make it worse.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What are you talking about. Queen/Jarvis for example, is only 400 meter from Ryerson, even closer to George Brown. Yonge/Queen is 500 meters from King/Bay. There are several highrise office building near Yonge/Dundas as well within a sheer of 5 minutes walk. 1 Dundas, 250 Yonge, Bell Trinity etc.

It will be a mistake to use Union as a DRL hub as it is way to the south edge of the CBD. Additionally, a Queen line will be busy all day due to the retail business, which means higher ridership, than a line on Front st. Having Union station on Front st was already a mistake. let's not make it worse.

Agreed. Take pressure off Union, not add to it.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And plus the existing Lakeshore corridor can provide ALRT service for that area in addition to a DRL.

 

[Dan416]

The DRL ignoring Union would be folly.

 

[nfitz]

The DRL ignoring Union would be folly.

A DRL serving Union would be folly. Whole point is to relieve the Yonge line, particularly Bloor-Yonge. Anyone who uses the Yonge line from Bloor to Union in AM peak is fully aware that Union isn't where most people are going.

The answer is you study it, and figure out where you'd achieve the maximum impact ... rather than simply pulling an idea out of someone's assumption.

 

[gweed123]

The line should be full. Bloor-Union-Pape on Queen. No more half projects.

Unfortunately this would be extremely politically unpalatable. A full DRL would likely be somewhere around $10 billion. A sticker shock like that would send the NeoCons in the City into a frenzy. It can still be phased but be continuous construction, it doesn't have to open all at the same time.

A DRL serving Union would be folly. Whole point is to relieve the Yonge line, particularly Bloor-Yonge. Anyone who uses the Yonge line from Bloor to Union in AM peak is fully aware that Union isn't where most people are going.

The answer is you study it, and figure out where you'd achieve the maximum impact ... rather than simply pulling an idea out of someone's assumption.

Here we go again. You're trying to kill two birds with one stone, but the problem is these two birds are nowhere near each other.

The reality is downtown needs BOTH an LRT under Queen and a DRL going into the Financial District. The two sets of needs are incompatible, and trying to jerry-rig them into a single line is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

The DRL is to relieve Bloor-Yonge, and to transport people to the Financial District, which is centred around Bay and King. Union is moderately closer to that intersection than Queen is.

Any rapid transit under Queen should have the primary motive of serving Queen, and the neighbourhoods along it. This requires more local stop spacing. It's intended to be more of a neighbourhood line as opposed to a commuter line (much like how the St. Clair Streetcar is a neighbourhood line).

Two completely different sets of needs, two completely different rationales. They should be kept separate, and not attempted to be melded together.

 

[Dan416]

100% agreed.

 

[dunkalunk]

King.