[David A]

I’m not suggesting whyte ave is “downtown”. I’m suggesting for a city of our size, having a vibrant, commercial, entertainment, arts street like whyte ave be seperate from our proper downtown spreads out the places people go. Same with 124th, brewery district, and Oliver. Anejo, cactus, local, developments like Citizen and the Pearl, etc. all could be concentrated closer together and create a very vibrant 12 block downtown. But instead, they’re spread out beyond a walkable distance.

So some people are on whyte, some near 109st garneau, others RHW, some Ice District or 104th. Other on jasper ave in Oliver, or 124th, or brewery district bars. It’s just too many areas that aren’t continuous.

If those all existed 109st to 97st, 104ave to the valley edge, we would have a BUMPIN downtown.

Many cities of any size have more than one commercial, retail or entertainment area. Calgary has 17 Ave about the same distance from their main downtown street as ours and a nice Kensington area in the other direction.

Having these does not destroy downtown and Whyte Ave certainly doesn't. Maybe the farther away West Ed Mall because of its huge size did seriously hurt downtown retail years ago, but Whyte Ave - nope!

 

[thommyjo]

Many cities of any size have more than one commercial, retail or entertainment area. Calgary has 17 Ave about the same distance from their main downtown street as ours and a nice Kensington area in the other direction.

Having these does not destroy downtown and Whyte Ave certainly doesn't. Maybe the farther away West Ed Mall because of its huge size did seriously hurt downtown retail years ago, but Whyte Ave - nope!

Agreed, but Calgary is significantly larger in terms of city proper pop. and in terms of downtown workforce/residents. They punch above their weight class because of the HQs too. But Calgary I still find to be more consolidated. Beltline/railway vs our massive river valley/whyte isn’t comparable. Vancouver feels more focused too. Sure there’s commercial, Olympic village, and broadway. But the downtown is still the hub (and their region is twice our pop with better transit into the core).

Before the ice district, whyte ave was the hub for bars, nightlife, and hockey culture. Arguably it still holds onto some of that beyond playoffs. Calgary/Toronto/Vancouver would never have their main nightlife or sports culture street be outside downtown like that.

A city of 1 mil can only support so many bars, restaurants, etc. having 4-6 main streets that are all pretty small by themselves, spreads out the vibrancy. Having only 2-3 areas would create more stretches like the great mainstreets and entertainment districts of other cities. 103&104street running from 99ave to 104ave, full of restaurants bars and shops, feeling more continuous, would do wonders. Vs Cactus, Campio, Parlour, Local, the Cabin, etc all be little islands surrounded by parking and desolation.

 

[David A]

Whyte Ave has existed in its current state for decades with some ups and downs. So it definitely did not cause the decline of our downtown over the last five years.

It attracts people in part because of its proximity to the university and the area south which is one of the faster growing areas of the city and because it retained interesting historic character buildings which were mostly torn down in the downtown core.

What do you want to do bulldoze Whyte Ave in the name of creating a better downtown?

 

[Gronk!]

You wanna know what can end all of this silly arguing over the semantics of "downtown Edmonton"? Rename the neighborhood that is officially known as "Downtown", which is bordered by 109 St, 97 St, 104 Ave and 97 Ave. How about renaming it to "Beaver Hills" or "Edmonton Centre"? Then downtown Edmonton can consist of this neighborhood plus Wîhkwêntôwin (formerly Oliver), Rossdale, The Quarters, Chinatown, etc. or however one sees fit.

 

[David A]

You wanna know what can end all of this silly arguing over the semantics of "downtown Edmonton"? Rename the neighborhood that is officially known as "Downtown", which is bordered by 109 St, 97 St, 104 Ave and 97 Ave. How about renaming it to "Beaver Hills" or "Edmonton Centre"? Then downtown Edmonton can consist of this neighborhood plus Wîhkwêntôwin (formerly Oliver), Rossdale, The Quarters, Chinatown, etc. or however one sees fit.

Yes, this all came about because someone said our downtown is too big, which I feel is ridiculous if not for any other reason because we can't even seem to agree on how big it is.

 

[David A]

I might also call it City Centre, because there is something actually called City Centre sort of in the centre of the downtown core, although it used to be called Edmonton Centre, which is less generic but hopefully at least we can all agree we are talking about Edmonton here.

 

[Coprolite]

Yes that, but they were generally referring to the amount of vacant office and retail space, and how spread out it feels compared to other cities. If you put that all in a few blocks rather than spreading it out from 97 st to 111 street it would feel more vibrant.

One line that caught my attention that is used in other cities as well, "You're not overbuilt, you're under-demolished"

I can see that line being very valid when it comes to Edmonton City Centre. It's always been this very awkward implementation of a suburban shopping mall with bad hours, it's been dying for ages, and there is nothing out there that can reverse its fortunes. It will never actually work as it's currently built, and there isn't really a practical fix. It will keep sucking the life out of everything around it until it's so extensively reworked that it would no longer be recognizable as what it was.

 

[kcantor]

I might also call it City Centre, because there is something actually called City Centre sort of in the centre of the downtown core, although it used to be called Edmonton Centre, which is less generic but hopefully at least we can all agree we are talking about Edmonton here.

We could adapt/adopt the European nomenclature for their city cores and call it Centro.

 

[thommyjo]

Whyte Ave has existed in its current state for decades with some ups and downs. So it definitely did not cause the decline of our downtown over the last five years.

It attracts people in part because of its proximity to the university and the area south which is one of the faster growing areas of the city and because it retained interesting historic character buildings which were mostly torn down in the downtown core.

What do you want to do bulldoze Whyte Ave in the name of creating a better downtown?

I never stated whyte ave led to the decline of our downtown…?

I stated that it’s always existed as competition and divided our vibrancy. In the 2006 oilers cup run, where did everyone go to watch and party? What other city would have people doing that not in their downtown?

And I’m not saying we need to bulldoze or change whyte haha. I’m simply stating that it’s part of our challenge for downtown. If jasper ave, was where “whyte” had been developed, our downtown could be a lot better off. Robson street in Vancouver compliments areas in their CBD, yaletown, granville street, etc. but whyte ave doesn’t compliment our downtown, it competes.

The original claim was that our downtown is too big/empty. I think one of the ways that’s seen is in the lack on continuity in the true downtown and instead these random fragments of nightlife and local spots scattered throughout the core.

 

[Offworld]

We could adapt/adopt the European nomenclature for their city cores and call it Centro.

I'd prefer innerstadt.

 

[David A]

I never stated whyte ave led to the decline of our downtown…?

I stated that it’s always existed as competition and divided our vibrancy. In the 2006 oilers cup run, where did everyone go to watch and party? What other city would have people doing that not in their downtown?

And I’m not saying we need to bulldoze or change whyte haha. I’m simply stating that it’s part of our challenge for downtown. If jasper ave, was where “whyte” had been developed, our downtown could be a lot better off. Robson street in Vancouver compliments areas in their CBD, yaletown, granville street, etc. but whyte ave doesn’t compliment our downtown, it competes.

The original claim was that our downtown is too big/empty. I think one of the ways that’s seen is in the lack on continuity in the true downtown and instead these random fragments of nightlife and local spots scattered throughout the core.

I realize you weren't saying we need to bulldoze Whyte Ave, but the initial proponents of the downtown too big were actually talking about demolishing things and this is a logical outcome of the tear down to improve approach which I feel very strongly is going down the wrong path. People have left or not come back to our downtown for various reasons, which is why it feels empty at times, it needs to attract more people and attract people back. Short of bulldozing it, Whyte Ave will remain a popular entertainment district for a number of fundamental reasons. But really we need to built it downtown back up, not tear down it or other areas.

 

[archited]

Downtown used to be a destination for Edmontonians when the attractions essentially amounted to The Bay, Woodwards, Eatons, Zellers, etc. -- that all vanished when the world's largest mall (WEM at the time) was built and folks could go to weather-protected shopping all under one roof. WEM is most responsible for the demise of viability for retail downtown (and no, I am not calling for the destruction of that Mall). Downtown is going to survive nicely and grow organically with the expansion of three post-secondary institutions (MacU, Norquest and UofA Extension), the ICE District with the possible addition of a downtown stadium, Stationalnds, the Parks and a throng of other new apartment buildings (a large number of which will be announced early next year).

 

[David A]

Downtown used to be a destination for Edmontonians when the attractions essentially amounted to The Bay, Woodwards, Eatons, Zellers, etc. -- that all vanished when the world's largest mall (WEM at the time) was built and folks could go to weather-protected shopping all under one roof. WEM is most responsible for the demise of viability for retail downtown (and no, I am not calling for the destruction of that Mall). Downtown is going to survive nicely and grow organically with the expansion of three post-secondary institutions (MacU, Norquest and UofA Extension), the ICE District with the possible addition of a downtown stadium, Stationalnds, the Parks and a throng of other new apartment buildings (a large number of which will be announced early next year).

I was thinking along these lines reflecting more on all the recent silly talk of demolishing things to improve our downtown, which I feel is mostly nonsense perhaps peddled by people who like to put forth easy answers and quick fixes.

But demolishing the mall actually is one thing that would probably help, although that probably needed to happen a few decades ago and it was/is never going to happen anyways.

 

[Munanyo]

Agreed, but Calgary is significantly larger in terms of city proper pop. and in terms of downtown workforce/residents. They punch above their weight class because of the HQs too. But Calgary I still find to be more consolidated. Beltline/railway vs our massive river valley/whyte isn’t comparable. Vancouver feels more focused too. Sure there’s commercial, Olympic village, and broadway. But the downtown is still the hub (and their region is twice our pop with better transit into the core).

Before the ice district, whyte ave was the hub for bars, nightlife, and hockey culture. Arguably it still holds onto some of that beyond playoffs. Calgary/Toronto/Vancouver would never have their main nightlife or sports culture street be outside downtown like that.

A city of 1 mil can only support so many bars, restaurants, etc. having 4-6 main streets that are all pretty small by themselves, spreads out the vibrancy. Having only 2-3 areas would create more stretches like the great mainstreets and entertainment districts of other cities. 103&104street running from 99ave to 104ave, full of restaurants bars and shops, feeling more continuous, would do wonders. Vs Cactus, Campio, Parlour, Local, the Cabin, etc all be little islands surrounded by parking and desolation.

Well said. Edmonton is a unique outlier compared to other major Canadian cities in that our "nightlife" districts are concentrated primarily outside downtown. Whereas Calgary and Ottawa (the two best comparables) have their primary going-out districts in or immediately adjacent to downtown. And before anyone comes at me, I do think this is because Edmonton spreads itself too thin given our size and population and it results in a much less vibrant nightlife than both Ottawa and Calgary. I'm very familiar with the Byward Market, Elgin Street, 17th ave and Kensington and all those centres are typically more lively and vibrant on a typical Friday/Saturday night than Whyte Ave or 124th here. That's not supposed to be a knock, but it just shows when you have several smaller "main streets" you are just creating pockets of vibrancy after hours and taking away from a singular main street that carries momentum and has a spillover effect to surrounding areas.

Maybe when the Ice District matures and fills out it will become our primary (along with Whyte ave) going out destination that truly feels vibrant and unique, but that's a long ways away.

 

[David A]

I would completely agree with the point the city is more spread out. This is very obvious when you compare the CMA populations of the two cities that are fairly close, yet Calgary is constantly referred to as a much bigger city. The discrepancy in these facts is because more people in the Edmonton area live in outlying cities and communities.

However, what I take issue with is the original comment about our downtown being too big. Apparently there has been great debate and confusion here about what downtown refers to, but I look at it being the core area where there is a concentration of high density commercial and residential space. So in that regard, I do not think our downtown is bigger than Calgary's, but theirs is more filled because of a concentration of corporate offices.

I don't really see having a entertainment district on Whyte Ave as a negative thing and I don't believe that will change, given its proximity to the U of A and other parts of the growing south side. Sections of Jasper Ave were more vibrant pre COVID and I feel in time they will recover and ICE District is a good development with further potential. But in any event the current problems of downtown here are the problems of downtown and will not be fixed by wishing Whyte Ave disappears or something else that is not going to happen. So I feel those who want to somehow turn Edmonton into the same as certain other cities will only be frustrated in this regard.