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A

allabootmatt

Guest
Long story short: through a lucky connection I presently have the opportunity to get a memo to David Miller on the merits of resurrecting some version of the DRL subway plan. He is interested and apparently will read it. I wrote an informal draft, stressing the potential to use existing railway subs for TTC train services from Union past Bloor and way into the NE and NW of the city. However my expertise on railways is limited and I'm sure my grasp of the technical issues is far from complete.

So I need your guys' help.

What is the most eloquent, concise, technically sound, and persuasive argument we can come up with? Any suggestions of text would be fantastic. Also, if someone handy with mapping software could create a schema of the various options, especially along surface rail subs (ie, cheap alignments), I would be much obliged.

Needless to say this is a huge opportunity. I would love all of your help.
 
allabootmatt:

Talk to James Bow of Transit Toronto?

AoD
 
The Kingston Sub was not wide enough, and CN was not willing to sell land from the corridor. That's why the TTC recommended a route that left the rail corridor to head east along Eastern Avenue. A yard would have been located where Toronto Film Studios is today. It would then have been cut-and-covered under Pape up to Danforth.

A route continuing along the rail corridor was examined, but it was determined that a complicated structure would be needed to elevate the line over the rail tracks, making it just as expensive as tunneling.

The TTC-recommended stops were at Front/Spadina, Convention Centre, Union, Sherbourne/Rail Corridor, Queen/Pape. Gerrard/Pape, and Danforth. I would put Sherbourne station west of the street so it could have exists to both Jarvis and Sherbourne. I would add a stop at Cherry to serve the West Don Lands and East Bayfront.

Don't believe the TTC when they say that tunnelling has the same cost as cut-and-cover. This seems to be an early-90s revelation for them. Note that Vancouver is building a 19 km subway for less than $2 billion thanks to cut-and-cover.
 
Great work Matt! I hope it gets the mayor to at least think and not outright discount the idea (as I've heard him do before).
 
I wrote an article for Transit Toronto many years ago. It has many of the points I would make today, though it might not be perfectly written! Have a look at it, and note that the line is even more useful since the announcement of the West Don Lands, East Bayfront, and Port Lands projects.

Remember that the route in the maps on the Transit Toronto page isn't the actual recommended route.
 
The thing I'm not sure of is whether the Kingston sub is wide enough past Eastern Av to keep the thing away from the need for tunneling, which would be a big selling point.
 
I think the mayor should take a look at all plans for any new subway development and hold a referendum.
 
I've pitched it to a TTC commissioner for whom I used to work, but he dismissed the idea, saying that streetcars were the way of the future for the downtown area.

I think the referendum is a great idea. I would bet that a surtax to fund the RT's replacement with the subway would pass in Scarborough.
 
unimaginative:

I never realized you're the author of that article!

Anyways, I think Jack Diamond sort of raised the possiblity of a stop at Jarvis (Sherbourne?) in his scheme for East Bayfront.

AoD
 
Unimaginative:

2 questions: first, are you aware of whether expropriating CN was considered for the sub?

second, when you refer to elevating the subway over the train tracks, are you referring to the mainline berm heading from the Don into Union Station? It seems like two extra tracks for TTC could be easily placed there.
 
An excellent idea and kudos and good luck to matt!

are you aware of whether expropriating CN was considered for the sub?
Click to expand...

There's a federal law dating back from the days of John A Macdonald IIRC that makes it impossible for governments to expropiate railways. Again, IIRC but it would be something that should be looked in to.
 
It seems to me that the areas you are talking about are liable to be in the vicinity of GO train stations. Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but I'd think there was value in trying to create interconnections between GO train lines and any DRL scheme.
 
Mmmmm...downtown relief line...

Make sure you recommend that it runs up Don Mills to Finch for maximum relief east of Yonge :)

Would Miller need to be sold on the basic idea of a DRL or does he already like it and he just needs to be convinced on the level of alignment and construction minutiae?

You've probably seen these before (and I don't know if data like this would persuade Miller or bore him), but here's the latest route ridership stats:
www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/ri..._05_06.pdf
And the subway station ridership numbers:
www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/su...p05_06.pdf
 
My impression is that he's barely aware the possibility of a DRL was ever even on the books. Or so it seemed from what my connection to him told me about their initial conversation. That would explain its strange dissapearance from planning docs/council etc.
 
None of the TTC commissioners I've spoken to have ever heard of the DRL. My all-streetcars-all-the-time talk isn't just totally crazy ranting! I have been told by TTC commissioners that all future expansions in the downtown area will be streetcars with right-of-way projects using St. Clair as the model.

2 questions: first, are you aware of whether expropriating CN was considered for the sub?
Click to expand...

CN would ask a fortune for any portion of the Kingston Sub, certainly making such a route more expensive than an underground routing (or the cantilevered route for that matter). Additionally, I don't think wedging two subway tracks into that corridor is a good idea, since GO might really be able to use any available space in the future.

second, when you refer to elevating the subway over the train tracks, are you referring to the mainline berm heading from the Don into Union Station? It seems like two extra tracks for TTC could be easily placed there.
Click to expand...

Yes, it would be easy west of the Don. I'm talking about through Riverdale, east of the Don.
 
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