M II A II R II K
Senior Member
One could create sidetracks for infill stations that stopping trains would use and wouldn't affect the more express trains.
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- Thread starter dunkalunk
- Start date
dunkalunk
Senior Member
I was actually thinking about this myself. IMO, the DRL should be compatible with the track of the Airport Releif line. Personally, I can't see a compromised express rail service from downtown the the airport being viable in the long term however, I could see a rapid transit line viable along the Weston sub with a half-hourly express rail connection from woodbine a more viable option.
The HRT vehicles would need to at least be standard gauge and be able draw power from catenary with the same lines as other electrified GO service, there would be the option of running either low or high floored vehicles. Capacity of the vehicles can also be improved by building 3-platform (1 exit, 2 entrance) stations to improve boarding times.
With this kind of setup, the DRL would also be able to run up the Richmond Hill GO line in the east end past the donway.
The HRT vehicles would need to at least be standard gauge and be able draw power from catenary with the same lines as other electrified GO service, there would be the option of running either low or high floored vehicles. Capacity of the vehicles can also be improved by building 3-platform (1 exit, 2 entrance) stations to improve boarding times.
With this kind of setup, the DRL would also be able to run up the Richmond Hill GO line in the east end past the donway.
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dunkalunk
Senior Member
I've given some more thought to the DRL and I've made some changes to my preferred alignmnent.
Please click through to the Google Map for more detail.
The central portion won't be much of a surprise, and as always a Queen, King, Wellington, ect. alignments all have there merits (I personally like King) but I should draw some attention to some of the differences between my proposal and many others.
Sunnyside Ave Routing
1) This routing allows the placement of a station directly under the intersection of Queen/Roncesvalles instead of offset, allowing better connectivity and also allowing for a higher speed curve Northward.
2) The Roncesvalles Streetcar Yard would make a good TBM launch/retreival shaft for Stage 1 of the DRL. (Where are you going to retrieve a TBM from in the middle of the financial district without causing havok?)
3) Roncesvalles just finished being reconstructed and does not need utilities ripped up.
4) In my alignment, there is no station between Dundas West and Sunnyside, so there is no need for the DRL to run underneath Roncesvalles.
Richmond Hill Line/Leslie Routing
1) An Open-Air routing along an existing ROW would likely be less expensive than tunnelling under Don Mills Road, which means cheaper and more likely extension.
2) There is better access to the provincial highway system at Leslie than at Fairview Mall.
3) The existing GO parking lot could be expanded/utilized
4) More redevlopment potential where the line intersects York Mills Road; Don Mills at York Mills is in a watershed and flanked by a Golf course compared to large industrial lots.
5) Would basically force people to use the Sheppard Subway to transfer to the DRL.
Interlining of the Western ARL with the DRL
The ARL and the western section of the DRL would use the exact same double-track, vehicles and catenary except for passing tracks at local DRL stations. The vehicles would be High-Floor HRT cars with overhead power. I'm not sure whether or not it would be economical to fold up the catenary and run third rail in tunnelled sections.
Generally, it would be less expensive to run rapid transit along a pre-existing electrified corridor than it would be to build an entirely new paralell one.
ARL trains would run at about a quarter/third frequency as DRL trains. For example, during peak and midday, ARL trains would run every 15 minutes while DRL trains would run every 5. Off-peak ARL could run every 30 minutes with DRL running every 7.
ARL trains would divert from DRL trains just north of Dundas West Station and continue to run express to Union with a possible stop at Liberty Village.
A side-effect of this arrangement is that the western DRL could have closer stations than would otherwise be feasible for a crosstown subway due to the semi-frequent parallel service. In addition, regular trains on the Kitchener line would have the opportunity to run express from Woodbine to Union during peak, increasing travel times for everyone on this corridor.
Modified GO Stations
Woodbine GO Station - A major transfer node between intercity VIA trains, express/local GO trains, the Airport, ARL/DRL, 427 Bus/Car traffic and possible extension of the Finch West LRT. Placing a transfer station here would reduce the need for parking at the airport.
Renforth GO Bus Station - Major transfer node between Eglinton LRT (extended to MCC), local bus services, and the Airport
Etobicoke North GO - Relocated from Kipling to Islington due to proximity of Woodbine Station and due to better access to the 401 with the existing ramp structure in addition to more room for parking.
Mt. Dennis GO - Replaces Weston GO, connects to Eglinton Crosstown.
Sunnyside GO - Connects Lakeshore trains to the DRL in addition to connecting local streetcars and the Waterfront West LRT. Not sure if it's possible, but a wayside stop for buses on the Gardiner would be useful here as well.
Liberty Village GO - Connects to the DRL to funnel pedestrian traffic away from Union
Queen East GO - Connects to the DRL to funnel pedestrian traffic away from Union in addition to connecting to local streetcars.
Oriole GO - Platforms moved north of thee 401 to better connect to the Sheppard Subway.
And finally, as a side note, I think it makes perfect sense to finance the construction of this line that largely paralells the DVP and Gardiner by placing tolls on Toronto's municipal highways (Including Black Creek Drive and LSB). In addition in would be worth investigating a congestion charge.
Thoughts?
Please click through to the Google Map for more detail.
The central portion won't be much of a surprise, and as always a Queen, King, Wellington, ect. alignments all have there merits (I personally like King) but I should draw some attention to some of the differences between my proposal and many others.
Sunnyside Ave Routing
1) This routing allows the placement of a station directly under the intersection of Queen/Roncesvalles instead of offset, allowing better connectivity and also allowing for a higher speed curve Northward.
2) The Roncesvalles Streetcar Yard would make a good TBM launch/retreival shaft for Stage 1 of the DRL. (Where are you going to retrieve a TBM from in the middle of the financial district without causing havok?)
3) Roncesvalles just finished being reconstructed and does not need utilities ripped up.
4) In my alignment, there is no station between Dundas West and Sunnyside, so there is no need for the DRL to run underneath Roncesvalles.
Richmond Hill Line/Leslie Routing
1) An Open-Air routing along an existing ROW would likely be less expensive than tunnelling under Don Mills Road, which means cheaper and more likely extension.
2) There is better access to the provincial highway system at Leslie than at Fairview Mall.
3) The existing GO parking lot could be expanded/utilized
4) More redevlopment potential where the line intersects York Mills Road; Don Mills at York Mills is in a watershed and flanked by a Golf course compared to large industrial lots.
5) Would basically force people to use the Sheppard Subway to transfer to the DRL.
Interlining of the Western ARL with the DRL
The ARL and the western section of the DRL would use the exact same double-track, vehicles and catenary except for passing tracks at local DRL stations. The vehicles would be High-Floor HRT cars with overhead power. I'm not sure whether or not it would be economical to fold up the catenary and run third rail in tunnelled sections.
Generally, it would be less expensive to run rapid transit along a pre-existing electrified corridor than it would be to build an entirely new paralell one.
ARL trains would run at about a quarter/third frequency as DRL trains. For example, during peak and midday, ARL trains would run every 15 minutes while DRL trains would run every 5. Off-peak ARL could run every 30 minutes with DRL running every 7.
ARL trains would divert from DRL trains just north of Dundas West Station and continue to run express to Union with a possible stop at Liberty Village.
A side-effect of this arrangement is that the western DRL could have closer stations than would otherwise be feasible for a crosstown subway due to the semi-frequent parallel service. In addition, regular trains on the Kitchener line would have the opportunity to run express from Woodbine to Union during peak, increasing travel times for everyone on this corridor.
Modified GO Stations
Woodbine GO Station - A major transfer node between intercity VIA trains, express/local GO trains, the Airport, ARL/DRL, 427 Bus/Car traffic and possible extension of the Finch West LRT. Placing a transfer station here would reduce the need for parking at the airport.
Renforth GO Bus Station - Major transfer node between Eglinton LRT (extended to MCC), local bus services, and the Airport
Etobicoke North GO - Relocated from Kipling to Islington due to proximity of Woodbine Station and due to better access to the 401 with the existing ramp structure in addition to more room for parking.
Mt. Dennis GO - Replaces Weston GO, connects to Eglinton Crosstown.
Sunnyside GO - Connects Lakeshore trains to the DRL in addition to connecting local streetcars and the Waterfront West LRT. Not sure if it's possible, but a wayside stop for buses on the Gardiner would be useful here as well.
Liberty Village GO - Connects to the DRL to funnel pedestrian traffic away from Union
Queen East GO - Connects to the DRL to funnel pedestrian traffic away from Union in addition to connecting to local streetcars.
Oriole GO - Platforms moved north of thee 401 to better connect to the Sheppard Subway.
And finally, as a side note, I think it makes perfect sense to finance the construction of this line that largely paralells the DVP and Gardiner by placing tolls on Toronto's municipal highways (Including Black Creek Drive and LSB). In addition in would be worth investigating a congestion charge.
Thoughts?
liamdevlin02
New Member
I like the strategy/route for the east side, but I'm confused by the routing for the extension. (I assume we're thinking that the DRL would stop at Eglinton, thus anything up to Sheppard would be extra?) Anyway, you said open air, following the Richmond Hill line (CN Bala subdivision), but that only starts just north of the Donway. That could work if the right of way has the room for an extra track.
Speaking as someone who works in the area, I think you might be over estimating the redevelopment potential for the Don Mills to Leslie section of York Mills. Aside from the car wash and the north west corner of Lesmill and York Mills, I'm not sure there's much there. I could be wrong though.
Also, I think the intention was to move the Oriole GO station further north when the Leslie subway station opened, but that never happened. This could be a good catalyst to execute such a move.
Adam
http://walkerweb.ca
jcam
Active Member
DRL - with extension in west to airport
I would combine a DRL routing with an extension in the west to the airport.
On the earlier point, an LRT north from Pape up the Don Mills alignment would probably be easier to implement across the Millwood Bridge than a subway.
So here's my path, starting at Pape:
-Pape (Pape & Danforth...might also need to add a spurl line to tie into Bloor/Danforth or to Donlands Yard)
-Gerrard (Gerrard & Pape)
-Dundas East (Dundas East & Logan)
-Queen East (Queen East & DeGrassi)
-Don River (Don Roadway...new Great Gulf Development, and extension of Broadview streetcar loop)
-Cherry (Cherry & rail berm)
-St. Lawrence (Lower Jarvis & rail berm)
-Dominion (mentioned in a previous post is a secondary GO station at the Bathurst yard. An alternative in that report is a new, deep tunnel station at Union for the Lakeshore GO line. You could combine this with a new subway station and dig it at the current GO Union Bus terminal, immediately behind the Dominion building on Front. The station could be built deep, with the tunnels under the rail berm. Build a tower above a new bus station and repurpose the center of the Dominion building as a secondary Union. This would relieve Union, but keep the hub downtown, and you could avoid another tunnel under front.
-Simcoe (Lower Simcoe & Bremner @ rail berm)
-City Place (Spadina & Blue Jays Way)
-Fort York (Bathurst & Front)
-Liberty Village (Strachan & Wellington W)
-King West (King W & Atlantic)
-Queen West (Queen W & Dufferin)
-Brockton (Lansdowne & Dundas W)
-Dundas West (interchange w/ Bloor/Danforth, Airport Link, GO transit)
-The Junction (Dundas W & Keele)
-Runneymede North (Dundas W & Runneymede)
-Lambton/Dundas (interchange at Jane St. & St. Clair as well as Dundas. This is a potential transit hub with St. Clair LRT, Jane LRT, and possible GO station). Dundas W is prime for intensification, and the employment lands lining the rail corridor could become a business sub-hub
-Eglinton Flats (Eglinton W & Jane - interchange with Eglinton Crosstown LRT extenstion)
-Weston (Lawrence W & Weston - interchange with Weston GO and Airport Link)
-St. Philips (Royal York/St. Philips & Dixon)
-Islington North (Islington & Dixon)
-Kipling North (Kipling & Dixon)
-Martin Grove (Martin Grove & Dixon)
-Highway 27 (Highway 27 & Dixon)
-Carlingview (Carlingview & Dixon)
-Pearson (Terminal 1)
A subway along this route takes advantage of already or soon-to-be dense neighbourhoods (West Donlands, St. Lawrence, City Place, Liberty Village, King West, Queen West, Junction), as well as neighbourhoods that could have density increase near them (Junction, Weston corridor, Dixon corridor), or have potential work hubs spring up (Islington/Dixon, Highway 27/Dixon, Carlingview/Dixon), it provides many connections to other TTC lines and GO lines, and provides a standard subway route to the airport (see London's tube connection AND Heathrow Connect rail connection).
Call it the DRL-Dundas-Jane-Weston-Dixon subway.
I would combine a DRL routing with an extension in the west to the airport.
On the earlier point, an LRT north from Pape up the Don Mills alignment would probably be easier to implement across the Millwood Bridge than a subway.
So here's my path, starting at Pape:
-Pape (Pape & Danforth...might also need to add a spurl line to tie into Bloor/Danforth or to Donlands Yard)
-Gerrard (Gerrard & Pape)
-Dundas East (Dundas East & Logan)
-Queen East (Queen East & DeGrassi)
-Don River (Don Roadway...new Great Gulf Development, and extension of Broadview streetcar loop)
-Cherry (Cherry & rail berm)
-St. Lawrence (Lower Jarvis & rail berm)
-Dominion (mentioned in a previous post is a secondary GO station at the Bathurst yard. An alternative in that report is a new, deep tunnel station at Union for the Lakeshore GO line. You could combine this with a new subway station and dig it at the current GO Union Bus terminal, immediately behind the Dominion building on Front. The station could be built deep, with the tunnels under the rail berm. Build a tower above a new bus station and repurpose the center of the Dominion building as a secondary Union. This would relieve Union, but keep the hub downtown, and you could avoid another tunnel under front.
-Simcoe (Lower Simcoe & Bremner @ rail berm)
-City Place (Spadina & Blue Jays Way)
-Fort York (Bathurst & Front)
-Liberty Village (Strachan & Wellington W)
-King West (King W & Atlantic)
-Queen West (Queen W & Dufferin)
-Brockton (Lansdowne & Dundas W)
-Dundas West (interchange w/ Bloor/Danforth, Airport Link, GO transit)
-The Junction (Dundas W & Keele)
-Runneymede North (Dundas W & Runneymede)
-Lambton/Dundas (interchange at Jane St. & St. Clair as well as Dundas. This is a potential transit hub with St. Clair LRT, Jane LRT, and possible GO station). Dundas W is prime for intensification, and the employment lands lining the rail corridor could become a business sub-hub
-Eglinton Flats (Eglinton W & Jane - interchange with Eglinton Crosstown LRT extenstion)
-Weston (Lawrence W & Weston - interchange with Weston GO and Airport Link)
-St. Philips (Royal York/St. Philips & Dixon)
-Islington North (Islington & Dixon)
-Kipling North (Kipling & Dixon)
-Martin Grove (Martin Grove & Dixon)
-Highway 27 (Highway 27 & Dixon)
-Carlingview (Carlingview & Dixon)
-Pearson (Terminal 1)
A subway along this route takes advantage of already or soon-to-be dense neighbourhoods (West Donlands, St. Lawrence, City Place, Liberty Village, King West, Queen West, Junction), as well as neighbourhoods that could have density increase near them (Junction, Weston corridor, Dixon corridor), or have potential work hubs spring up (Islington/Dixon, Highway 27/Dixon, Carlingview/Dixon), it provides many connections to other TTC lines and GO lines, and provides a standard subway route to the airport (see London's tube connection AND Heathrow Connect rail connection).
Call it the DRL-Dundas-Jane-Weston-Dixon subway.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Gerrard Square should include a GO station to prompt people to transfer to the DRL before Union, and have the option to go north from that location on the DRL too.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Wonder if the DRL study will be suppressed or ignored?
dunkalunk
Senior Member
^^
Let's hope not. Now that Rob Ford crusade for Subways has placed alternate financing methods such as tolling municipal expressways and increasing the base parking rate on the table, I could see it going forward. I could also see Metrolinx taking full control on a drl to help mitigate the politicking at city level.
Let's hope not. Now that Rob Ford crusade for Subways has placed alternate financing methods such as tolling municipal expressways and increasing the base parking rate on the table, I could see it going forward. I could also see Metrolinx taking full control on a drl to help mitigate the politicking at city level.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
Just concentrating on Pape to Union through my neighbourhood, I think that a GO station like Main would be great, but the combined station should not be attached to Gerrard Square, but rather the No Frills plaza and/or Gerrard & Carlaw, as the line starts to curve west.
Providing subway to Don Roadway should mean you have your second GO transfer there (Queen & Degrassi is too far east, and too built up, for a GO station.)
Start planning this stretch now -- the employment benefits alone should pay for it.
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M II A II R II K
Senior Member
The main point was to create a station where the DRL and GO lines intersect for the Lakeshore Line. Maybe a Leslieville Station at Queen for the other GO line to intersect with the DRL as well.
So I think that if the DRL is interlined with the University-Spadina Subway, it should be renamed the Triborough Subway.
Why? Because I think that any connotation of "Downtown" in the line name will face immediate backlash. By naming it the Triborough Subway, not only do you remove the 'downtown' from the name, but you also give it an immediate identifier. Also, it saves from naming it the Don Mills-Front-University-Spadina Subway.
And just for reference, the 3 boroughs it would pass through are East York, the Old City of Toronto, and North York (it passes under the former City of York, but no stops are actually in York).
Just a thought.
Why? Because I think that any connotation of "Downtown" in the line name will face immediate backlash. By naming it the Triborough Subway, not only do you remove the 'downtown' from the name, but you also give it an immediate identifier. Also, it saves from naming it the Don Mills-Front-University-Spadina Subway.
And just for reference, the 3 boroughs it would pass through are East York, the Old City of Toronto, and North York (it passes under the former City of York, but no stops are actually in York).
Just a thought.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
And now... DRGondolas?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...-to-gondolas-to-put-an-end-to-urban-gridlock/
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/05/31/a-toronto-gondola-system/
I'm lukewarm (at best) on the Castle Frank route as it will have to punch through historic Cabbagetown just as Parliament is starting to really look good.
However, phase 2 and phase 3 look stellar. You bring transit to CityPlace & could have the city centre airport station on the island, making both the ferry and the tunnel obsolete.
And phase 3 could provide the new Don Roadway office campus, WDL, and East Bayfront with transit to Union.
Worth a look, IMO
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...-to-gondolas-to-put-an-end-to-urban-gridlock/
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/05/31/a-toronto-gondola-system/
I'm lukewarm (at best) on the Castle Frank route as it will have to punch through historic Cabbagetown just as Parliament is starting to really look good.
However, phase 2 and phase 3 look stellar. You bring transit to CityPlace & could have the city centre airport station on the island, making both the ferry and the tunnel obsolete.
And phase 3 could provide the new Don Roadway office campus, WDL, and East Bayfront with transit to Union.
Worth a look, IMO
nfitz
Superstar
To be frank, that's a terrible name. That fact that some of the suburbs used to be known as boroughs is barely known by most Torontonians. And never, not once, have I heard the use of that word here.
What next, are we supposed to rename the Toronto Transit Commission because of a backlash against Toronto?
The proposed renaming to Yonge-University seems just fine to me.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
And plus something like Triborough is too original for the TTC to accept.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
I personally think that once the eglinton LRT is built, we should switch to a lettering scheme, although if we are to keep the naming scheme, it would be good to identify subways by their destination points and maybe a midpoint. (Eg. Line A: Vaughan-Union-Finch)
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