News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.9K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 40K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 5.1K     0 

Do you believe the Downtown Relief Line should be built as Subway or LRT?


  • Total voters
    90
Yeah, but none of them are extensions of the Canada Line, which is a complete line in and of itself. If they chose to build half the Canada line with the ROTEM vehicles, and then finish it with a separate Skytrain line, then it would be an orphan.
 
I edited Leonard's excellent Transit Glossary post to include a section on ICTS/Mini-Metro. The Canada Line, as well as the Bombarider ICTS, the VAL and the DLR systems will all be part of this technology. The Canada Line is a mini-metro.
 
I still think running the RT under Eglinton is a good idea. I recognize that there are drawbacks (people heading to destinations along Bloor & Danforth will still have to transfer). But, it could reduce crowding at Bloor-Yonge by moving some of those transfers to Eglinton (for those not already moved onto regional rail). It also preserves some of the investment we have already made in the RT infrastructure.

But I do see the other side...
 
The only RT infrastructure that's being retained is a few kilometres of rails. All the vehicles are being replaced, and even part of the line is being rebuilt, so the depreciated investment is very small. That's really no reason to choose to spend $3 or $4 billion on that technology. If you're going the fully grade-separated route on Eglinton, there's absolutely no reason why you wouldn't just go subway.

Also recall that getting people to transfer to the Yonge Line earlier isn't a good idea. While you're definitely right that it would help at Bloor-Yonge, the line itself is still overcrowded, and it's best to keep people off Yonge for as long as possible.
 
I would argue that it is ophaned, as the BC government has committed to building the next round of lines (some of them fully independent of the current network) as SkyTrain.

Not true. The UBC line will just be an extension of the current Millenium Line. The extension to Coquitlam will interline with the Millenium Line. The extension into Surrey will add onto the Expo Line. It will all create an efficient and automated loop.

Of course the Canada Line is a different matter.
 
Rainforest

ICTS might not be suitable for a DRL. But what about an Eglinton line? Essentially extend the SRT from Kennedy eastwards along (and under) Eglinton.

Well, the estimated cost of Scarborough RT extension is 700 million, just from STC to Sheppard / Markham Rd. That cost almost rivals a full-fledged subway, while the capacity is merely similar to a fully grade-separate light rail.

Not sure if ICTS on Eglinton will be any cheaper (per km).
 
Well, the estimated cost of Scarborough RT extension is 700 million, just from STC to Sheppard / Markham Rd. That cost almost rivals a full-fledged subway, while the capacity is merely similar to a fully grade-separate light rail.

Not sure if ICTS on Eglinton will be any cheaper (per km).

The RT to Markham & Sheppard is more than $700M since you're excluding renovating the existing line and buying new cars.

It's hard to say what a renovated, extended (to Malvern and along Eglinton to the airport) RT would cost since we don't know if it would be as gold-plated as the Spadina extension. Adding the RT costs to the Eglinton LRT costs already gets you to at least $4 billion, which an enormous investment for the sake of keeping a diseased orphan around.
 
These cost issues, frankly, have nothing to do with the technology chosen. They have to do with the people designing and building the lines. The TTC chooses to design and manage these projects completely in house, even though they clearly can't possibly have an engineering or project management staff as experienced at building these mega-projects as a major engineering or project management firm. They also don't operate under any kind of cost constraint. For example, I was reading the EA on the Vaughan subway extension. They examined the possibility of running a segment of the route above ground, instead of tunnelling under empty, government-owned fields. They dismissed the option out of hand, because of slightly less convenient geometry on a pocket track turnout, without even looking at how much money it would save! There was absolutely no mention of the financial impact that could, potentially, be in the hundreds of millions for several kilometres of tunnel and an underground station at the 407 (alone costing close to $100 million).

The reason the Vancouver route could be delivered at a reasonable cost is simply because the company building it had an incentive to save money. Now, I don't believe that the public sector can never economize. The TTC used to be masterful at building economical subway lines, like the Yonge and B-D routes which were efficiently cut-and-covered or even run above-ground wherever possible without excessive impact on the neighbourhood or quality of service. Both those lines operate very well, I think everyone would agree. This persisted well into the 80s, where they produced designs like the DRL where every line of that report talks about cost and benefit, and always looks for the cheapest way to do something without unduly sacrificing the quality of service. For some inexplicable reason, they've completely abandoned that practice. When you read a TTC report, there's almost never any mention of more economical solutions, and if they're brought up, they're quickly shot down moments later with rather feeble excuses. That, more than anything, is why it now costs almost twice as much to build a subway in Toronto as it does in Montreal, let alone Vancouver.

The most important thing people understand here is that cost saving is not about technology, it's not about architecture, it's not about comfort, it's not about any of these things that people usually bring up when they try to cut costs. Virtually the entire cost of the line is determined by its alignment. Deep, tunnelled lines are expensive, and require expensive deep stations. Shallow cut-and-cover or even surface lines are vastly less expensive, and can have far simpler stations. That's where people should be looking if they want to save money.

*And by simpler stations, I don't mean ugly stations! Montreal built its latest subway with gorgeous stations, and for a fraction of the cost per mile of Toronto subways, despite a major river crossing. A shallower station, without an underground mezzanine, or a surface station can be more beautiful than any station the TTC has built in years. Hell, get real architects to design them like we used to, instead of once again letting the TTC do it in-house.
 
^One reason among many that a provincial takeover of the TTC could be the best thing to happen to transit in Toronto. I don't know what happened to the TTC in the last 20 years, but it seems like a very clumsy operation now.
 
I don't know if it's necessarily the panacea that people are thinking. I mean, it'd likely be the same people running the show with even more distant oversight.

I can just go into so much detail on this thing. It's really just glaring. They examined elevating the line through the hydro corridor, and they dismissed it because the grade would preclude locating a pocket track just north of Steeles West, it would require moving the VCC station across the street, and it could require the expropriation of a small amount of presently-unused UPS property that they may choose to use for an expansion at some point in the future. I'm serious! These are the reasons for spending, potentially (they never indicate that they ever looked at how much, exactly) hundreds of millions of dollars. Remember that the underground 407 station alone is over $90 million. But why not go beyond this? This is the separate north-of-Steeles study, so it has to tie in to the already-designed Steeles West station. In that study, nobody even seemed to dream of the possibility of anything other than an all-underground alignment, even though Steeles West station is also built on empty land! If they simply had it built it at grade, it would be possible to add the pocket track and potentially save hundreds of millions more! I won't bore you guys with the details. If I at least saw an explanation why it wasn't possible (even one as weak as possibly inconveniencing a UPS expansion), I would understand, but there's just nothing there. I'm not even an engineer, and I bet I could slash hundreds of millions of the cost of that line. Can you imagine what a person educated in the field who's read more detailed reports, with a real economic incentive, could do?
 
Construction on the UPS expansion has already begun, at least that's what it looked like when I drove by a few weeks ago. The whole lack of any economic savings is total BS, and this is what will happen with all the other transit lines to be built in the City unless Metrolinx can tell the T.T.C. otherwise.
 
The downtown relief line should be a subway. Cost savings will not greater with LRT due to the fact that they are slower and have a lower capacity, therefore more LRTs will need to be purchased and driven by more unionized workers.

How would an underground or above ground LRT system collect payment? Would there be single door entry setup for fare payment (i.e. St. Clair ROW), or would the "station" be enclosed with turnstiles(i.e. a subway station)?

The downtown relief line must pass through or terminate at either Dundas West Station or Keele Station as Jane Station is not a viable option due to High Park acting as a physical barrier.
 
The downtown relief line should be a subway. Cost savings will not greater with LRT due to the fact that they are slower and have a lower capacity, therefore more LRTs will need to be purchased and driven by more unionized workers.

How would an underground or above ground LRT system collect payment? Would there be single door entry setup for fare payment (i.e. St. Clair ROW), or would the "station" be enclosed with turnstiles(i.e. a subway station)?

The downtown relief line must pass through or terminate at either Dundas West Station or Keele Station as Jane Station is not a viable option due to High Park acting as a physical barrier.

How could you know that a new LRV that has not even been designed, built or even ordered yet would be slower than a subway train?

they do not plan to use single door entry for any new LRV's and an underground line could just as easily use turnstiles.
 
Based on the LRVs that I have seen in Europe(with and without dedicated lanes), they are slower than subways, both in travel speeds and passenger loading times, even with an honour system for fare payment. Assuming the TTC does not re-invent the LRV, I do not expect these new LRVs to be much different.

This entire debate on whether LRV or heavy rail is the better choice boils down to cost to build, cost to operate, and capacity constraints. Yes it is cheaper to build LRVs and tunnels for them, but they are not nearly as efficient. Lower capacities means more LRVs will be needed, and drivers don't come cheap, nor do LRVs.

Where do you draw the line between LRV and heavy rail? The number of people it can carry? That distinction is blurred, especially if you put the LRV underground and built subway-like stations for them.
 
How could you know that a new LRV that has not even been designed, built or even ordered yet would be slower than a subway train?

Assuming they'll operate on the exact same alignment with the same stations, they'd be equal in speed. But then they'd also be pretty much equal in cost, too, so why not go with the higher capacity option?

Toronto's new LRVs are also more expensive than subway cars.
 

Back
Top