[wonderboy416]

kEiThZ - would it still not ring true that Dubai is unlike any other major, skyscraper filled city on the planet? It seems to be a hodge podge of government styles, welcoming capatalism but slamming down on individual freedoms with an iron fist while having very poor public services in place. As amazing as Dubai looks in pictures I get the feeling it fails miserably at street level to capture the essence of big-city life, something that cities from Winnipeg to Mumbai to Ulaanbaatar would have in common.

Again correct me if I'm wrong but in my mind living in Dubai would be just as different as living in Pyonyang and just as absurdly weird for all the wrong reasons.

 

[adma]

Dubai looks like the sort of absurdist fantasy city many of us drew street plans for when we were about eight or nine years old.

Yeah, it's a tailormade wet dream for the era of the adolescent Skyscraper City forum participant...

 

[TO City of Light]

kEiThZ Again correct me if I'm wrong but in my mind living in Dubai would be just as different as living in Pyonyang and just as absurdly weird for all the wrong reasons.

While not having lived there, I have spent a bit of time there over half a dozen visits. It is certainly not Pyonyang for living or visiting.

As a city of the future, it works. It is Blade Runner plus. No problem getting a drink. Everything is available, and that includes great restaurants, a good nightlife - certainly world class compared to that vomitorium in TO known as the Entertainment District. I would rank the Buddha Bar in Dubai as better than the original in Paris. The skiing is better than in Toronto although there is no Collingwood 80 miles away. It has its own Time Out magazine - no doubt supported by the government. Shopping is wonderful. It has incredible access to anywhere in the world.

There is an old Dubai with souks - actually the largest gold souk in the world and there is the dynamic of life one expects in a traditional Gulf port.

Given that, it is still a Gulf city (think Kuwait, Doha, etc.) with all that implies. Personally, I love to visit the place and have a few friends there but would hate to work or live there. But for me that applies to most places.

In the end, it is a place like Toronto. If you are from there or from a more provincial place, it is fine. If you are looking for a world class city, forget it.

You would enjoy a visit but don't sign a contract to work there for the next five years.



.

 

[simply Dan]

I absolutely love flying Emirates - man, do they ever know how to run an airline!

 

[wonderboy416]

It is certainly not Pyonyang for living or visiting.

I didn't say it was. I just tried to think of another major city that would offer as little in common with the rest of the world as possible.

It's nice that Dubai has everything to offer you mentioned. But I can't get cable tv unless my boss gives me permission? There is no way to rationalize such a disregard for people calling your city home. I imagine many of the slaves (that's exactly what most of the construction workers in Dubai are - who needs human rights?) would be the ones turned down if such a request was made (if they were able to afford it).

There are certain things that transcend culture and religion (which should have no place in government - although telling that to any middle eastern government will probably result in a quick execution) and Dubai seems oblivious to them.

Oh well, at least one can find ample, immaculately clean public washroom facilities in Pyonyang.

 

[MetroMan]

That article is filled with generalizations. I spent half my childhood in the UAE and I can assure you that not everything in that article is accurate.

1) Addresses - yes people use landmarks. So the building where I stayed was across from the Palace Hotel in Sharjah. However, several of the Emirates (Dubai in particular) are developing an address system. Streets these days are numbered. It's just taking a while to catch on.

2) Roads - Rougher than North America for sure. But on par with many european cities.....

3) Plants and Trees - Yes there's few of them....it's a desert after all. And they are incredibly valued. When I was there, it was offence to step on the grass on the medians. That's a far cry to how much we value greenery in Canada for sure.

4) Alcohol - What the writer of that article does not understand is that the UAE is a confederation of emirates. So essentially each emirate is like an independent country. So while alcohol is freely available in Ajman (a resort town) its not in Sharjah. The concept and operation of the alcohol permit is common in most of the more tolerant muslim countries. It ensures muslims can't purchase alcohol and it ensures that consumption is regulated.

5) Prices. Dubai used to be cheap when i was there. It's not any more.

6) Staring. Send a white girl to any part of the Middle east or South Asia and see what the public reaction is. She's being oversensitive.

7) Labour. I saved this for the end. My dad worked in a construction company and regularly handled issues with construction labourers. Applying western standards to this issue is incredibly difficult. The first question to ask is "If it's so bad, why are they still coming?" Simple. Because it beats life back home. Check out the exchange rate between the Dhiram and the Ruppee. A few years of hard labour in Dubai means a lifetime of being the toast of the small village in South Asia that you came from. The option for most of these folks was to slog in Mumbai for 100 ruppees a day or slog in Dubai for a 100 dhirams a day.

Abuse of labourers. There are good and bad employers. My dad's company maintained great quarters for its workers. They weren't much to look at by our standards. But they were far better than anything the worker would get while working in major city in South Asia. Admittedly, I do hear from relatives that the situation has taken a turn for the worse lately and abusive practices (such as holding passports) is becoming more common. The government does crackdown occasionally, but for some employers the risk of fines is probably worth the savings so it will go on. The test will be, if the abuse will stop attracting the labour they need.

Your entire post is an apologist's view of the article that originated this thread. All you did was confirm every point and added a "but" to each one that never effectively contradicts the original point.

In summary, what you said:

1) Yes there is no address system. But it's coming. I promise.
That doesn't change the fact that a city is being built on billions and extravagance but doesn't address the essentials.

2) Roads. They're just like the article states, but there are European cities that are the same.
Just because there are other cities with bad drivers, it doesn't make it ok for a city with the façade put on by Dubai to not regulate the behavior on their roads.

3) Trees. Yes, there are few but they irrigate them with enough water to feed a small surrounding nation, just to keep up appearances.
The situation is unsustainable. It's an ecological disaster in the making.

4) Alcohol. The article is correct. It's difficult to get alcohol if you're part of the poor and powerless.

5) Prices. Dubai used to be cheap when i was there. It's not any more.
In other words, exactly what the article says.

6) Staring. Caucasian women are stared down like objects... but it's ok because they're in the middle east.

7) Labour. Yes, the article is correct in stating that workers are exploited and there are instances of their passports being taken alleged in the article.

You're confirming the article bullet by bullet.... uhhh.. what was your point again with regards to article being filled with generalizations? Which side are you on?

 

[kEiThZ]

kEiThZ - would it still not ring true that Dubai is unlike any other major, skyscraper filled city on the planet? ..... As amazing as Dubai looks in pictures I get the feeling it fails miserably at street level to capture the essence of big-city life, something that cities from Winnipeg to Mumbai to Ulaanbaatar would have in common.

Like any big city, it has pockets filled with urban life (particularly the old city) and pockets less so. Given the fact that most folks live in apartment buildings though, the fact that the urban space is denser than most North American cities should surely count for something against the letter writer's comments. Unfortunately, a good chunk of their development happened in the 80's and 90's went car culture was rampant throughout the world and infected many of Dubai's foreign trained and hired city planners. That's a situation they are trying to reverse today.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the cityscape varies by Emirate. Abu Dhabi, the capital of the UAE, has chosen a completely different path. It's pursuing a virtually textbook Jane Jacobs vision. It emphasize community and family life in its development and a mixed urban streetscape.

Lastly, the incredible thing about planners in Dubai is how fast they can turn things around. If they can build an entire transit network within years meant largely for the workers and tourists (there's no way an emirati would be caught dead outside his German SUV), one can only imagine what they will do to ride the whole eco-friendly neo-urbanist wave. I am willing to bet that before Toronto finishes the Sheppard line, Dubai will have undergone a whole era of transformation to make it a more green, urbane city.

It seems to be a hodge podge of government styles, welcoming capatalism but slamming down on individual freedoms with an iron fist while having very poor public services in place.

It's nice that Dubai has everything to offer you mentioned. But I can't get cable tv unless my boss gives me permission? There is no way to rationalize such a disregard for people calling your city home. I imagine many of the slaves (that's exactly what most of the construction workers in Dubai are - who needs human rights?) would be the ones turned down if such a request was made (if they were able to afford it).

Talking about governments services...what are you referring to? Health care was either free or low cost based on income...including for the foreign labourers. Schooling was free. Municipal services were excellent. In fact, government offices in the UAE make the corporate sector in North America look like sloths. Do they have community rec centres or public libraries? No. But give it time.... They just built an entire university quarter for the city. Museums and public libraries are next.

As for their authoritarian duplicity with capitalism, etc. Look up Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea. All western allies. Look up their records on democracy when they were industrializing. Nobody questioned them. And Dubai certainly has a far milder human rights records than many of those places in the height of their authoritarian years. Heck, compare the record of Dubai to say China. The other issue to understand is that it is an islamic country which does imply restrictions. Can't surf porn on the net. Can't publicly speak out against the Sheikh, etc. That's the way they choose to run their society. It has more limits than we do. However, anyone who has ever visited or lived there will tell you the limits are hardly unreasonable and for the most part do not impact day-to-day life at all.

And the cable part is BS....you can get cable without your boss signing off on it. That policy is a holdover from the days when your employer provided you with housing. Since the employer owned the apartment the phone, the cable etc was registered to the employer. For that reason you needed the employer's signature. If you live in your own place, that's not an issue.

I absolutely love flying Emirates - man, do they ever know how to run an airline!

I wish they sent every new AC CEO to Emirates for a week to learn about service. They serve you in a minimum of half a dozen languages on every aircraft. They had seatback TVs in the mid 90s. And their food in economy class is made by a five star hotel chain. And the killer....Dubai has maintained an open skies policy that allows any airline to compete with Emirates, since its inception.

There are certain things that transcend culture and religion (which should have no place in government - although telling that to any middle eastern government will probably result in a quick execution) and Dubai seems oblivious to them.

Hardly. Dubai and the UAE at large is well aware of the need to improve its human rights image. However, like any society they will develop at their own pace. People forget that for all its cosmopolitan nature, the place was an arab fishing village 35 years ago. The sensitivities of those Arabs who live there have to be taken into account. I find it remarkable that they tolerate the things they do...like alcohol and bikinis on the beach. Try that anywhere else in the Middle East and see what you get. But all in all, the emirati of today are hospitable and tolerant. The yonger generation tend to be much more liberal, often western educated, and speak english...all of which imbues a different mindset. Give it time and they will attain global standards of human rights. But all in all, the rights that the average joe have are sufficient for day to day living...unless you are some kind of activist. You can bitch about the sheikh to your friends or on facebook. You can move around the country as wish. You can practice any religion. In fact the Catholic church and school I attended had their construction funded by the Sheikh of Dubai. The only things that are not allowed are public protests or media comments against the royal family. Strikes were not tolerated in the past but they are increasingly tolerated today. On a day-to-day basis, I doubt anyone would notice a difference in personal freedoms between Toronto and any of the 7 emirates.

Oh well, at least one can find ample, immaculately clean public washroom facilities in Pyonyang.

There's many in Dubai too. I never had a problem finding a clean public washroom growing up. And that was with far less development than there is now.


Anyway, I would urge anyone to go there and judge for yourself. These kind of rantings by the letter writer do little to further anyone's cultural experience. That woman was obvioiusly never meant to leave the contiguous 48 states.

 

[wonderboy416]

Lastly, the incredible thing about planners in Dubai is how fast they can turn things around. If they can build an entire transit network within years meant largely for the workers and tourists (there's no way an emirati would be caught dead outside his German SUV), one can only imagine what they will do to ride the whole eco-friendly neo-urbanist wave. I am willing to bet that before Toronto finishes the Sheppard line, Dubai will have undergone a whole era of transformation to make it a more green, urbane city.

In fact, government offices in the UAE make the corporate sector in North America look like sloths. Do they have community rec centres or public libraries? No. But give it time.... They just built an entire university quarter for the city. Museums and public libraries are next.

Perhaps, as MetroMan pointed out a lot of your points seem to be saying "hey, just wait for the future, it's going to get better!" - what I don't understand is how do you get to the point where Dubai is now and not have libraries or rec centres (thanks for letting us know this city doesn't have those, just amazing they left out such minor details when building a place to be home to millions). The more you talk about Dubai the more it seems like a city wanted to show-off to the world first and foremost and was worried about such minor details later.

As for your comment about the Sheppard line, if Canada legalized slave labour like it is in Dubai we could have a subway map to rival Tokyo, London, NYC, Seoul etc... it would also help having a municipal government that didn't have a clue what due process is and just rubber stamped most projects without debating their impacts on the environment or whether or not the people are actually asking for such services. As much as we complain about our government and all the red tape I'm sure no one in their right mind would trade it for what they have in Dubai.

As for their authoritarian duplicity with capitalism, etc. Look up Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea. All western allies. Look up their records on democracy when they were industrializing. Nobody questioned them. And Dubai certainly has a far milder human rights records than many of those places in the height of their authoritarian years.

Ok and not too long ago there was a man named Hitler...
so I guess it would be ok if his second coming appeared in Dubai too? Dubai is just merely playing catchup too right? It's funny that you mention Taiwan and South Korea as I live in SK and was in Taiwan 3 weeks ago. It wasn't very long ago (in my grandparents lifetime) that both countries were occupied by Japan and have since managed to become fully democratic and wonderfully advanced nations.... As of today they are both (along with Singapore who you mentioned) light years ahead of Dubai in just about every department except for number of actively employed slave labourers and skyscraper construction (although South Korea is starting to give Dubai a run for the money). Not sure what your point is, Canada has a very dark past too.. most countries do. This isn't the 1900's anymore.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wasn't attempting to be apologetic but to point out the challenges with using a Western mindset here....specifically with respect to that woman's letter. This woman's goes on a long rant about how dismal the place is. Then why is she there? Many of her complaints are equally pre-dominant throughout the Gulf and some (like the driving) are pre-dominant in many western cities. I'd venture that the main highway in Dubai is not significantly better or worse than the 401 in Toronto.

Anyway, find me any city in the world that's perfectly laid out and meet's every planner's dream. Or a society that has a perfect human rights record. Heck, our treatment of natives has been described as bordering on a crime against humanity. I am trying to show here that every society has flaws. The UAE, of course, has its fair share. However, what I sincerely despise are those who would criticize without taking the context into account. One cannot assess the progress that the UAE (Dubai in particular) has made without taking their geography and history into account. They've only been an independent country since the late 70s. And in that time they've advanced significantly on every front including human rights. Given the state of the Middle East, in my books that's an accomplishment. And they have to essentially manage the rise of a country and a city at the same time.

I have already gone over the issue of what you claim is 'slave labour'. I won't explain it again in depth. Those labourers always see something worthwhile that's why they're still flocking to the Gulf (not just Dubai). You have to know something about what the villages of South Asia are like and what their employment options in the subcontinent are like to understand why they are there. The Gulf provides them a better life and more opportunity that they could have ever had at home. You might call that slave labour. But I see it as no different than those who decide to work for oil companies in the arctic, etc. It's tough work, but there's money to be made. If you want to criticize it, put in context. Let's talk about the alternatives that they have for employment. Let's talk about the ship breaking yards where they wallow in asbestos and arsenic. Or the textile mills or tanneries where they work bare handed with vats of chemicals. Perhaps they should have remained farmers in India and been among the thousands that kill themselves in years when the rains are poor. It's quite rich for westerners wearing jeans made in India, typing on a computer made in China, driving a car fueled with middle eastern oil, who have their goods delivered by ships heading for ship breakers in Cochin, to talk about the poor working conditions of the bengali labourer in Dubai.

Returning to the issue of Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore. You talk about how they have rebounded from their occupation by Japan. They achieved that by imposing one party authoritarian rule for close to half a century. Many might argue, that kind of governance was what facilitated their economic reconstruction. In the case of the UAE, it's no different. They have started slowly democratizing by creating various consultative councils. It's the first steps but it'll get there.

Again, this has to be taken into context. This is a country that's less than 35 years old. Where was Canada when it was 35 years old? Or the US in its first 35 years. You cite the Asian tigers. What was their record in the fist 35 years? Moreover, they have a very conservative culture in the middle east that they have to deal with. And that culture war plays out in strange ways. That's why Ajman and Dubai allow alcohol but Sharjah doesn't....because the sheikh of Sharjah has ties to the house of Saud. I consider it an absolute miracle that they allow women to dress as they wish, that alcohol is freely available (even to the labourers), that they have a relatively free press, and that they have freedom of religion. Again, how many places in the Middle East have all that?

Lastly, we have to keep in that it's their country. They can and should set the laws that establish values as they see fit. Just as we do over here. It's the role of outsiders to learn and adapt to the laws just as we expect the same of every migrant and tourist to Canada. Nobody is forcing anybody to live in Dubai. If somebody like this letter writer feels uncomfortable there, they should leave instead of whining about what a horrible place it is.

I would never judge a book by its cover, nor a place by its pictures. Until you've taken a cab ride in dubai, shopped in the souk, haggled for a t-shirt in Karama, or passed a nomad with his camels along the highway, it's difficult to understand the contrast of the UAE....of both its successes and its failures.

 

[kEiThZ]

Perhaps, as MetroMan pointed out a lot of your points seem to be saying "hey, just wait for the future, it's going to get better!" - what I don't understand is how do you get to the point where Dubai is now and not have libraries or rec centres (thanks for letting us know this city doesn't have those, just amazing they left out such minor details when building a place to be home to millions). The more you talk about Dubai the more it seems like a city wanted to show-off to the world first and foremost and was worried about such minor details later.

They do have libraries, rec centres. Though in my estimation they aren't adequate. But like I said, they'll get there. As to them wanting to show off. So what? Explain to me why that is a bad thing. Cities compete the world over for investment. They all try to put their foot forward. Dubai is no different. You think Miller goes around saying we have a poor subway network to drum up investment for Toronto?

As for your comment about the Sheppard line, if Canada legalized slave labour like it is in Dubai we could have a subway map to rival Tokyo, London, NYC, Seoul etc... it would also help having a municipal government that didn't have a clue what due process is and just rubber stamped most projects without debating their impacts on the environment or whether or not the people are actually asking for such services. As much as we complain about our government and all the red tape I'm sure no one in their right mind would trade it for what they have in Dubai.

At least try to google before you make such an absolutely ignorant statement. The UAE has a functioning legal system with due process. As to the labour issue...see my other comments below....

Ok and not too long ago there was a man named Hitler...
so I guess it would be ok if his second coming appeared in Dubai too? Dubai is just merely playing catchup too right?

Now this is both truly ignorant and downright offensive. So in your books, having a few strict laws in a reasonably free society is the equivalent of tolerance for a genocidal maniac. Banning porn and barely restricting alcohol puts one in the same league as the guy who came up with Auschwitz? These type of remarks speaks volumes about your intellect and ignorance. Again, before you make such outlandish comments, try looking up what the restrictions are over there. Incidentally, many are similar to what we have here...ie public drunkeness. The difference maybe is that they enforce the laws they have.

1) Yes there is no address system. But it's coming. I promise.
That doesn't change the fact that a city is being built on billions and extravagance but doesn't address the essentials.

Wrong. They have an address system. People don't use it. That's what I said. I was trying to qualify that woman's comments. The tradition there is quite similar for example, to India or the UK, where postmen have to find buildings by name not address. It's quite an exaggeration for her to say that cabbies can't find their way around and that you have to draw a map on your mail.

2) Roads. They're just like the article states, but there are European cities that are the same.
Just because there are other cities with bad drivers, it doesn't make it ok for a city with the façade put on by Dubai to not regulate the behavior on their roads.

They don't advertise themselves are the city of good drivers. Again, I found her complaint to be an exaggeration and I responded to it by quantifying what she terms to be bad driving. I would consider the roads of Paris to be a far greater threat to my life.

3) Trees. Yes, there are few but they irrigate them with enough water to feed a small surrounding nation, just to keep up appearances.
The situation is unsustainable. It's an ecological disaster in the making.

It's no different than you watering your lawn and removing anything that you don't desire to be on it (weeds). Water there costs an arm and a leg. Most folks there consider themselves lucky that the government goes out of its way to keep the city green. It's a pretty penny to them. As to the sustainability of the practice....since they are using desalinated water and not depleting aquifiers I wouldn't consider it all that bad. Moreover, since water costs a lot, I am willing to bet that water consumption per capita is far lower there than here.

Again, going back to the woman's comment. WTF did she expect to see in a desert?

4) Alcohol. The article is correct. It's difficult to get alcohol if you're part of the poor and powerless.

No. You can still get a permit if you're a labourer. It just will be relatively expensive for you. Yes, the limit is set according to income. So they have a bit of a temperance streak. But that hardly means that alcohol is 'difficult to get if you're part of the poor and powerless'. No more so than it being difficult to buy here if you earn too little. At least booze is cheaper there than the LCBO.

Again, what did the writer expect in a Muslim country? She should try looking for a bar in Riyadh.

5) Prices. Dubai used to be cheap when i was there. It's not any more.
In other words, exactly what the article says.

On this I will concede to some extent. Prices have gone up. However, in general the cost of living remains lower than here. That woman forgot to mention the fact that there are absolutely no deductions on your pay cheque and no sales taxes. And that businesses have no corporate taxes. You may pay 10 bucks for lettuce. But you should be able to afford it if you're making 40% more than here. Also, lettuce is probably the most egregious example. That's like saying I should be able to buy kangaroo meat in Canada for a few bucks a kilo. Had she acculturated, she would have figured out that vegetables from India (lettuce is not popular) are far more common and cheaper.

6) Staring. Caucasian women are stared down like objects... but it's ok because they're in the middle east.

She thought she was being stared down like an object. I would say that people looked at her because she was different. Heck, as a person of colour, I get stared at when I go into a corner store in small town Ontario. I don't take offence to it. But she seems to think that every middle eastern guy is after her because she's white. You tell me who's got the problem in that scenario.

7) Labour. Yes, the article is correct in stating that workers are exploited and there are instances of their passports being taken alleged in the article.

I have tried to explain the context in which this happens. I don't agree with mistreatment of workers. My father was a construction engineer in Dubai who worked for government projects quite often. He took excellent care of his workers. And I often visited the worker's quarters as a child. They were spartan to be ensure, but could hardly be construed as abusive.

Back on the passport issue. There are many challenges with this issue. Workers sometimes do have a bond which they must work off. This often happens because the company pays for all the arrangements to bring the worker over and often trains the individual. Companies often fear that workers will grab the training and the visa and leave for a rival employer. For this reason some employers do hold on to the passport. You can get it back...as long as you agree to leave the country (it allows the employer to stay within their quota). The visa system has quite a similar philosophy to the US H-1 system. Yes, it's illegal to hold the passport. And if an employee is willing to complain to the ministry of labour than he will get the passport back. Does it happen? Yes. Is it a widespread practice. Certainly not.

 

[billy corgan]

Heck, as a person of colour, I get stared at when I go into a corner store in small town Ontario.

What a load of BS. The only time you’ll get a second glance anywhere in Ontario is if you walk in nude.

My wife attended a medical conference in Dubai last fall. She described the city as chaotic, racist and destined to fail due to its poor planning. As a woman she was verbally and sexually harassed when she went out shopping.

 

[jks]

^^^^^ I agree, maybe that was just an exaggeration, but in all honesty, Canada is like the most racially acceptable and tolerant country in the world.

 

[wonderboy416]

I have already gone over the issue of what you claim is 'slave labour'. I won't explain it again in depth. Those labourers always see something worthwhile that's why they're still flocking to the Gulf (not just Dubai). You have to know something about what the villages of South Asia are like and what their employment options in the subcontinent are like to understand why they are there.

So just because they come from unfortunate situations does not make them slaves? They live in dire conditions, are paid next to nothing (as the author mentions, not enough to buy a plane ticket back home) and surrender their passports so they can work 7 days a week building what essentially amounts to monuments for the wealthy. I have no idea what planet you live on but to me that's slavery. It would be most ironic if Dubai decided to build a modern day sphinx or pyramid.

Returning to the issue of Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore. You talk about how they have rebounded from their occupation by Japan. They achieved that by imposing one party authoritarian rule for close to half a century.

South Korea and Taiwan were under Japanese rule, a plan was in place to guide both countries back into a full democracy and amazingly both tiny countries have become world leaders in technology even surpassing Japan in many ways (and doing very well in many other industries too). What does this have to do with Dubai? NOTHING... Dubai isn't growing from the chaos that South Korea and Taiwan did, your attempt to bring them into this argument as justification for Dubai's pre-historic ways is irrelevant.

Again, this has to be taken into context. This is a country that's less than 35 years old. Where was Canada when it was 35 years old? Or the US in its first 35 years.

That was well before this century or the last... I guess we should hold Dubai to different standards, my bad, I didn't know it worked like that.

They do have libraries, rec centres. Though in my estimation they aren't adequate. But like I said, they'll get there. As to them wanting to show off. So what? Explain to me why that is a bad thing. Cities compete the world over for investment. They all try to put their foot forward. Dubai is no different. You think Miller goes around saying we have a poor subway network to drum up investment for Toronto?

Building an iconic tower or two is one thing... building ecological disasters in the form of man-made islands shaped like palm trees and dotted with skyscrapers in the freaking desert is on a whole other level. Imagine if Miller sponsored such a plan? Except I supposed we'd shape ours like giant Geese. No where else on the planet will you find a government willing to commit to something that's so completely and utterly stupid on every level imaginable (insert North Korean comment here... oh wait, even they aren't this stupid).

Now this is both truly ignorant and downright offensive. So in your books, having a few strict laws in a reasonably free society is the equivalent of tolerance for a genocidal maniac. Banning porn and barely restricting alcohol puts one in the same league as the guy who came up with Auschwitz? These type of remarks speaks volumes about your intellect and ignorance. Again, before you make such outlandish comments, try looking up what the restrictions are over there. Incidentally, many are similar to what we have here...ie public drunkeness. The difference maybe is that they enforce the laws they have.

How was it ignorant? You were suggesting we should tolerate many of the things happening in Dubai because other countries have done worse in their past. What an incredibly low standard to hold Dubai too in this day and age. They're not in the midst of recovering from some war or disaster, they CHOSE to take this path there for there's no excuse for the human rights violations occurring on a a daily basis there. I was not implying that their prehistoric laws are comparable to the Nazi regime at all.

It's no different than you watering your lawn and removing anything that you don't desire to be on it (weeds). Water there costs an arm and a leg. Most folks there consider themselves lucky that the government goes out of its way to keep the city green. It's a pretty penny to them. As to the sustainability of the practice....since they are using desalinated water and not depleting aquifiers I wouldn't consider it all that bad. Moreover, since water costs a lot, I am willing to bet that water consumption per capita is far lower there than here.

Umm it's a million times different then someone in the GTA watering their lawn. Have you ever maintained a lawn in either climate? One would require at least 10x the amount of water than the other. Even then municipalities throughout the world are cracking down on this sort of thing. When I had a house in Milton there were a number of days when I was not allowed to water my lawn and as much as my neighbours complained I fully supported it. Also golf courses in Ontario use an incredible amount of water each summer, I can't even begin to fathom how much water it would take to keep a course in Dubai looking green year-round - yet they do. Also the idea that one needs green grass to look at in a city (but not walk on or use) is absurd, why not just lay down some field turf instead and save the enivornment the stress of trying to grow something in a climate mother nature never intended?

She thought she was being stared down like an object. I would say that people looked at her because she was different.

There is a difference between looking and staring. When I step onto the subway in Seoul I get a lot of glances and second-takes, but after that everyone goes back to minding their own business (I'm assuming that's normal for a city where 98% of the people on the trains are local). It's the same for Caucasian woman here too from what I've heard from Canadian and American women... just blatantly staring at someone is completely different. It's just beyond creepy, we've all seen it happen on the red rocket before.. imagine that everywhere you go all the time just because you're a foreign woman? Is life really that depressing out there?

 

[jenny_zhang]

6) Staring. Caucasian women are stared down like objects... but it's ok because they're in the middle east.

Why do you take the author's word as gospel truth and defend it? Isn't it possible she may be a bit oversensitive? Foreigners are always stared out in places they are not typically found. White or non-white. When I lived in Asia, whether in Japan ,Korea, wherever, any foreigner is stared at. I find it kind of strange how everyone is so quick to jump on the idea of the creepy Arab men staring at the innocent woman and not consider the simple explanation that this is a woman not used to being in a place where she looks out of place and draws stares an overreacting slightly.

@wonderboy416...have you actually done any research or have any knowledge of Dubai beyond reading articles like these? I have never been to Dubai, but I don't understand the point of comparing them Singapore or Korea....I mean I guess you're east Asia fan #1 after a whole few months living there but I don't think that qualifies as an all knowing world citizen just yet. In particular, Singapore is not what I would call a "full democracy" by any stretch of the term despite what the wikipedia page tells you , speaking as a native Singaporean. Democracy is a curtain to hide what is essentially one-party rule with opposing voices quickly shot down (or bankrupted). I've also lived in Korea, where I came across some awful anti-foreigner (particularly anti-Chinese) sentiment. They may have a first world economy but the mindset and social perspectives haven't changed, despite the tame impression that Western tourists may get.

Also, the point that Keith was making with his double standards comment was that many countries have had unpleasant aspects to them during their development, and yet you expect Dubai to have perfect human rights standards while excusing anything done by other nations. Is it bad? Yes. Is it uniquely horrible? No. Idealistically we could expect it....but idealistically we would also prefer that China and India not pollute so much as they industrialize further...

 

[jenny_zhang]

^^^^^ I agree, maybe that was just an exaggeration, but in all honesty, Canada is like the most racially acceptable and tolerant country in the world.

Definitely. A lot of kids here are going to grow up thinking that this is the norm, that tolerance is the modern way of doing things, and then realize that actually, Canada is more or less an outlier compared to the rest of the world.

I won't say it's perfect but it's definitely better than any other place on this planet.