[unimaginative2]

If anything, the areas that need help attracting people are exactly where retail is going according the site plan - the waterfront will shine on its own ... think of the central waterfront, there's not much there in terms of retail but its plenty busy .. Queens Quay, not so much ...

But Queens Quay in the Central Waterfront has loads of retail units. The bottom of every condo building is lined with them from end to end. Many of them are empty. The problem is that condo lobbies, for various reasons, make very poor locations for anything but Rabba, movie store, dry cleaners. I just don't see the fundamental difference in this plan from the central waterfront that would make it any more successful. It still makes the waterfront feel a lot like a private amenity for the condo residents, and it's still going to have retail and restaurants that are overwhelmingly geared to the tourist market.

I actually don't care if this parcel is a destination on its own. I'm not calling for some massive "attraction" on the site at all. I'd just like something like a waterfront neighbourhoods in other cities with successful, vibrant waterfronts. Or something like a successful Toronto neighbourhood.

 

[Rowe]

I'm with taal on this.

I don't really think "cafes" are the cornerstone of the urban environment or we must have a cultural icon in the centre of every community.

Its going to be a beautiful neighbourhood with retail, dining, public spaces, social and private housing.

And by no means do we need a 'big-box Woodbine' on the waterfront.. that's like saying Lower Don, Portlands and West Don Lands all MUST be entrainment/cultural centres too. Those neighbourhoods are larger than East Bay. Simple, well thought and planned residential communities can be well done and become successful.

 

[unimaginative2]

Okay, just to be clear, the last thing we need is a big-box Woodbine. I just don't see how this development is any different from the central waterfront. I don't see why those retail spaces will have anything other than Rabbas to serve the adjacent condos, and why that single massive restaurant unit will have anything other than an overpriced corporate "eatery." The architecture is pretty--that's not the issue here at all. The issue is that there's nothing animating the water's edge. Like all of the others, this development turns its back on the water so that it's merely an amenity for the adjacent condos.

If there were at least a few more (and smaller) restaurant units, there'd at least be the chance of somebody independent and interesting opening up in there. As it stands, there isn't a hope in hell that a promising young chef is going to get his hands on that single restaurant unit.

 

[Torontovibe]

I completely disagree with some of the comments above ... there's quite a bit of retail, I doubt anyone can deny that.

I do understand the concern though ... not much retail on the waterfront ... I just don't share it : )

If anything, the areas that need help attracting people are exactly where retail is going according the site plan - the waterfront will shine on its own ... think of the central waterfront, there's not much there in terms of retail but its plenty busy .. Queens Quay, not so much ...

And regarding the cultural use ... honestly, give me a break, this is one small component of the entire waterfront plan, does every small parcel have to a grand and magnificent cultural components ... no!
Not downtown like?? umm, most neighborhoods downtown have very little in the way have cultural components.

If your argument is you want this parcel of land to be a destination on it's own ... I can by that, and it's a valid point.

The Central Waterfront is busy for one reason, Harbourfront. Take away that one attraction and there would be very few people. Once you go west of Spadina, you almost never see many people, unless there is a show. Even the Music Garden is pretty empty most of the time. H2O attracts a bit of a crowd, only along the sand and only on sunny, weekends. At all other times, it's mostly empty.

I don't want to see the East Central Waterfront dead 95% of the time. The larger density might help but if there is nothing to do there, what will attract people? You can't just say because it's on the waterfront it will attract people. We have miles and miles of waterfront and much of it is under used, if not empty.


Um, where do you see any "grand and magnificent cultural components" on Toronto's Central Waterfront? lol Do you see any great, iconic structures because I haven't seen any? Well, unless you think The Power Plant Gallery is "magnificent". I think it's just OK. I wish it was magnificent. The pods at Ontario Place are iconic and look magnificent but they aren't in the Central Waterfront and there is nothing in them, of any use to most people.

Toronto needs more first rate major attractions, especially on the waterfront, of which we have NONE! Harbourfront is nice as a whole but it has no major attractions, just interesting festivals. (which I do enjoy)

 

[taal]

Okay, just to be clear, the last thing we need is a big-box Woodbine. I just don't see how this development is any different from the central waterfront. I don't see why those retail spaces will have anything other than Rabbas to serve the adjacent condos, and why that single massive restaurant unit will have anything other than an overpriced corporate "eatery." The architecture is pretty--that's not the issue here at all. The issue is that there's nothing animating the water's edge. Like all of the others, this development turns its back on the water so that it's merely an amenity for the adjacent condos.

If there were at least a few more (and smaller) restaurant units, there'd at least be the chance of somebody independent and interesting opening up in there. As it stands, there isn't a hope in hell that a promising young chef is going to get his hands on that single restaurant unit.

I'm sorry unimaginative2, you're all over the place ... small retail is your typical condo fare ... that's exactly what prevents interesting things from poping up in the bottom of most buildings ... here we see units that are actually large enough to house something interesting.

How exactly would you change the site plan yourself, as I'm not really sure what point your trying to make ... your agruments are valid but have absoultly nothing to do with the site plan - it's a question of sort of retail they go after / is attracted to the area - I can draw anything and you could have the very same comments.

 

[unimaginative2]

First of all, the issue is that there is only one restaurant unit. It's nice to have retail units of mixed sizes. Besides, what do you mean by interesting? Is a Sobey's or a Shopper's interesting?

Okay, well I don't purport to have the magic solution. I just know what hasn't worked in the past. Building a successful neighbourhood from scratch is incredibly difficult. If I were to "design" the area, I wouldn't design it. I'd do my best to let it develop organically over time, and I'd zone it and provide incentives for it to develop the exact kind of built form of successful neighbourhoods in our city: Queen Street, College Street, Kensington Market, the Danforth. Narrow, deep, diverse buildings. I'd also make the waterfront itself the main hub of activity. I'd be inclined to shift Queens Quay down closer to the water so that its south side is at or near the water's edge. Two blocks of condos between the street and the water isn't a recipe for a thriving and accessible waterfront. At the most basic level, I'd orient the businesses to the water itself. Right now there's basically nothing opening onto that waterfront "promenade." The day care and health club will clearly be accessed by the driveway to the north. Even the restaurant has its entrance on that Bonnycastle street. As you walk along the water's edge, there's quite simply nothing there other than joggers on treadmills staring at you through a plate glass window. It's astounding that a so-called waterfront development could completely turn its back on the water.

Hell, even something precious and planned and touristy like Darling Harbour at least uses the water as its focal point. This plan doesn't seem to even have a focal point.

We've got five waterfront restaurants in this city. Five. In the whole city. A city with a 30km waterfront. And all of them are touristy and not particularly unique.

You know, that strip along the little canal next to Sherbourne Park would be a pretty great place for restaurants with patios along the canal. Alas that area doesn't seem to be slated for restaurants and our liquor laws would probably somehow preclude it anyway.

The Parliament slip would be a perfect focal point. There are countless cities with slips like that, completely surrounded with restaurants and maybe some shops. Public uses. Instead, it again appears to weirdly completely turn its back on the site. There don't seem to be any doors to anything other than a private yacht club. Imagine strolling down that slip. All you're going to be looking at is plate glass windows.

I'm not sure how Bonnycastle Street will be much different from the commercial strips in Cityplace. HVE for example. The entrance street is lined with retail units on both sides, there's a daycare, and a restaurant unit with a patio.

I really don't want to be a Cassandra here, but looking at this objectively...how is this different? Why will it work when other stuff just like it hasn't?

 

[luxome]

i'm stoked!! any pricing details for any of these developments yet??

 

[Rowe]

Is a Sobey's or a Shopper's interesting?

I love Sobey's and Shopper's.

 

[taal]

First of all, the issue is that there is only one restaurant unit. It's nice to have retail units of mixed sizes. Besides, what do you mean by interesting? Is a Sobey's or a Shopper's interesting?

Okay, well I don't purport to have the magic solution. I just know what hasn't worked in the past. Building a successful neighbourhood from scratch is incredibly difficult. If I were to "design" the area, I wouldn't design it. I'd do my best to let it develop organically over time, and I'd zone it and provide incentives for it to develop the exact kind of built form of successful neighbourhoods in our city: Queen Street, College Street, Kensington Market, the Danforth. Narrow, deep, diverse buildings. I'd also make the waterfront itself the main hub of activity. I'd be inclined to shift Queens Quay down closer to the water so that its south side is at or near the water's edge. Two blocks of condos between the street and the water isn't a recipe for a thriving and accessible waterfront. At the most basic level, I'd orient the businesses to the water itself. Right now there's basically nothing opening onto that waterfront "promenade." The day care and health club will clearly be accessed by the driveway to the north. Even the restaurant has its entrance on that Bonnycastle street. As you walk along the water's edge, there's quite simply nothing there other than joggers on treadmills staring at you through a plate glass window. It's astounding that a so-called waterfront development could completely turn its back on the water.

Hell, even something precious and planned and touristy like Darling Harbour at least uses the water as its focal point. This plan doesn't seem to even have a focal point.

We've got five waterfront restaurants in this city. Five. In the whole city. A city with a 30km waterfront. And all of them are touristy and not particularly unique.

You know, that strip along the little canal next to Sherbourne Park would be a pretty great place for restaurants with patios along the canal. Alas that area doesn't seem to be slated for restaurants and our liquor laws would probably somehow preclude it anyway.

The Parliament slip would be a perfect focal point. There are countless cities with slips like that, completely surrounded with restaurants and maybe some shops. Public uses. Instead, it again appears to weirdly completely turn its back on the site. There don't seem to be any doors to anything other than a private yacht club. Imagine strolling down that slip. All you're going to be looking at is plate glass windows.

I'm not sure how Bonnycastle Street will be much different from the commercial strips in Cityplace. HVE for example. The entrance street is lined with retail units on both sides, there's a daycare, and a restaurant unit with a patio.

I really don't want to be a Cassandra here, but looking at this objectively...how is this different? Why will it work when other stuff just like it hasn't?

Too be honest I just noticed that according to the site plan there will only be one restaurant - I gathered any of the retail outlets could very well be restaurants as well ... Anyway, all I take out of your post is you would be content if the retail, the very same retail planned (i.e. not more quantity wise) was oriented directly on the water (or one of the slips) and had more restaurants i.e. a slight re-orientation of the site plan would change everything. Okay, I understand.

Regarding:
"I'm not sure how Bonnycastle Street will be much different from the commercial strips in Cityplace. HVE for example. The entrance street is lined with retail units on both sides, there's a daycare, and a restaurant unit with a patio."

I think this description describes many streets throughout the world - from parts of 5th avenue to a strip mall ...
Again, the size of the retail units really stands out - if they all turn into bank branches it won't be great I agree - but honestly, that could happen anywhere - maybe if I replaced 'retail' with 'interesting non bank / chain retail ' you'd be happier as well

 

[Redroom Studios]

its simple - they just need to zone it like the DD where no chain stores are allowed.

 

[unimaginative2]

Too be honest I just noticed that according to the site plan there will only be one restaurant - I gathered any of the retail outlets could very well be restaurants as well ... Anyway, all I take out of your post is you would be content if the retail, the very same retail planned (i.e. not more quantity wise) was oriented directly on the water (or one of the slips) and had more restaurants i.e. a slight re-orientation of the site plan would change everything. Okay, I understand.

No, exactly what I said is that it's not that simple. There is no one-sentence solution, as much as we might wish there were one. Queen Street or Kensington Market or College Street weren't master planned. A neighbourhood is a lot more than site planning. But I would agree that the most egregious aspect of this project is the fact that its public uses completely turn their back on the water that is supposedly their focal point.

I think this description describes many streets throughout the world - from parts of 5th avenue to a strip mall ...

Yeah, and what differentiates 5th Avenue from a strip mall is that the latter was master planned and built by one developer all at once.

I love Sobey's and Shopper's.

They're great stores to have around, but the city doesn't need to be spending billions of dollars on planning and site preparation to make room for even more of them.

its simple - they just need to zone it like the DD where no chain stores are allowed.

Again, I just don't think it's that simple. There's nothing wrong with a few chain stores now and then. This isn't something ideologically anti-corporate. It's about creating something that's more than a condo complex--a real neighbourhood. Something that will actually bring one of Toronto's vaunted commercial neighbourhoods to the edge of its greatest natural feature.

 

[Dan416]

I'm not sure it's even possible to "create" an "organic" neighborhood at all.

 

[taal]

I'm not sure it's even possible to "create" an "organic" neighborhood at all.

Not to meet these requirments that can't be described

 

[junctionist]

The best you can do is build a neighbourhood with considerable diversity of establishments and high density. I'm not worried about the density but the diversity of establishments won't happen if the amount of space available for businesses is small.

Maybe an organic neighbourhood is possible but it may not desirable. You could simply give small business entrepreneurs some land in which they would build something to their budget and needs. Encourage a high density of different businesses to build in a small area with a lot of population density and the result could be organic. The buildings would look pretty cheap in the first decades but eventually some would attain greater wealth, and slowly individual buildings would be replaced with more elaborate ones. The undesirable aspect would be the amount of time needed for it to "organically" develop.

 

[Big Daddy]

Here are a few other angles from the video.