[David A]

Agreed 100%.

And if we're talking about lack of character, I'll be the first to point out that Calgary's downtown, which a lot of people here love to praise and compare to ours, is much more sterile and generic (albeit cleaner and better kept), than ours.

Edmonton's downtown needs some TLC, for sure. We also need to attract more residents to realize it's full potential, and out of the big cities I've been, in North America, few have so much potential, for one reason or the other.

I believe ICE District is going to be just the beginning of a long, but dramatic change in the city's core, over the next few decades. It'll be interesting to see what we'll look like in 20, 30 years.

For the most part I would agree with the comparison with Calgary. However, I really like Stephen Avenue, although I haven't been there for a while, I gather it is not as good as it once was.

I understand Calgary is working hard to get more people to live downtown (something Edmonton has been working at for much a longer time) and that will probably eventually help make it more vibrant.

I feel a big part of the sterile and generic feeling comes from (with the exception of Stephen Avenue and a few other places), most of the older buildings were torn down in previous boom rushes to build office towers.

 

[IanO]

Walked around Stephen yesterday afternoon and it was bumpin'. I'd give up Drai for even half of that in our core with. Calgary always impresses with how 'big city' it feels at times.

 

[David A]

Walked around Stephen yesterday afternoon and it was bumpin'. I'd give up Drai for even half of that in our core with. Calgary always impresses with how 'big city' it feels at times.

Chock full of historic buildings with character, as opposed to the more sterile sections of their downtown with the office towers.

 

[thommyjo]

I’m a big DT booster. But idk how Calgary and Vancouver aren’t seen as better DTs. You can choose our best street and compare to one of their worst. But a random sample of 20 street blocks in all 3 cities would have Edmonton DT looking the worst almost every time. A lot of that is just density, maturity. We’ll get there slowly.

We have great pockets in our core. I can give my friends a good 5 stops DT that impress. But just randomly walking around without knowing where to go and Edmonton doesn’t shine too bright. Whereas Vancouver you have gorgeous vegetation, cool shops, and sweet buildings on most streets DT at this point. Hence the Broadway plan and other cores building up in north van, Burnaby, Richmond.

 

[IanO]

The biggest issue for Edmonton is the lack of complete streets/blocks and how disjointed things become when you have massive dirt/dusty/forgotten lots on many of our blocks.

We also need to double our Downtown population to get some critical mass.

 

[David A]

I’m a big DT booster. But idk how Calgary and Vancouver aren’t seen as better DTs. You can choose our best street and compare to one of their worst. But a random sample of 20 street blocks in all 3 cities would have Edmonton DT looking the worst almost every time. A lot of that is just density, maturity. We’ll get there slowly.

We have great pockets in our core. I can give my friends a good 5 stops DT that impress. But just randomly walking around without knowing where to go and Edmonton doesn’t shine too bright. Whereas Vancouver you have gorgeous vegetation, cool shops, and sweet buildings on most streets DT at this point. Hence the Broadway plan and other cores building up in north van, Burnaby, Richmond.

First of all we (and Calgary) do have a very different climate than Vancouver, all that rain keeps things very green there and gets rid of any dust. Vancouver also has severe geographic physical limitations - their downtown is on a peninsula, so it is dense and getting denser. On the down side, housing affordability is terrible there. Probably over 90% of Canadians couldn't afford to live comfortably in downtown Vancouver if they wanted to. So it has become a retirement location for better of Canadians and attracts wealthy foreigners - a gated community without the gates - a gentrified, Disneyfied version of a downtown. It looks nice.

On the other hand, we could really use fewer of those surface parking lots downtown and I wish that would be the focus for building new buildings (such as most of Ice District). The abundance of parking lots and empty lots is what makes things here somewhat disjointed.

 

[Gronk!]

The day after

Pedway between Stantec and the Connect Centre, and 2 hosers

 

[TAS]

Wouldn't mind them adding some colour to the concrete plaza - get some sidewalk art on there or something.

 

[Vijay19]

I think one of DT Edmonton’s biggest problems is the absence of any decent streetscaping to make it pedestrian enticing. With the exception of a couple of pockets (104St and Rice Howard Way) half the trees look dead, it has inadequate and ugly lighting, there are no nice places to sit, the sidewalks are narrow/ugly/crumbling and there are very few places/businesses to sit outside to be engaged with the street. I think it is going to take a serious chunk of cash to remedy this problem, so I think it’s going to be a long time before we see anything remotely close to Calgary or Vancouvers downtowns. Sorry but I think anyone who thinks our downtown competes with Calgary’s or Vancouver’s is exhibiting hometown pride and grasping at straws, which is fair.

 

[thommyjo]

First of all we (and Calgary) do have a very different climate than Vancouver, all that rain keeps things very green there and gets rid of any dust. Vancouver also has severe geographic physical limitations - their downtown is on a peninsula, so it is dense and getting denser. On the down side, housing affordability is terrible there. Probably over 90% of Canadians couldn't afford to live comfortably in downtown Vancouver if they wanted to. So it has become a retirement location for better of Canadians and attracts wealthy foreigners - a gated community without the gates - a gentrified, Disneyfied version of a downtown. It looks nice.

On the other hand, we could really use fewer of those surface parking lots downtown and I wish that would be the focus for building new buildings (such as most of Ice District). The abundance of parking lots and empty lots is what makes things here somewhat disjointed.

As expensive as it is, I still have 20+ friends who live DT and make under 65k. 2-2.5k for rent isn’t cheap. But still very doable without a car and if you’re starting your career. It’s more the actual home ownership that’s impossible there. And I think it’s the impossible home ownership that pushes more young people to spend 5+ years in their core first before bailing to Langley or Kelowna.

Whereas 90% of my friends in Edmonton go from their parents to maybe a basement suite for a bit, then buy a 350-500k house before 27. They spend no season of life DT. Where a lot of Toronto and Vancouver benefit from a ton of young people investing 5 years in the core.

To get back in topic, my hope is that projects like this, with grocery stores and other amenities, and so close to something like rogers that does draw suburbanites into the core temporarily, it will help turn the tide. I have a few friends looking to rent DT soon, they’re stoked about this grocer and are looking more CBD than Oliver because of this and ice district.

 

[occidentalcapital]

I think one of DT Edmonton’s biggest problems is the absence of any decent streetscaping to make it pedestrian enticing. With the exception of a couple of pockets (104St and Rice Howard Way) half the trees look dead, it has inadequate and ugly lighting, there are no nice places to sit, the sidewalks are narrow/ugly/crumbling and there are very few places/businesses to sit outside to be engaged with the street. I think it is going to take a serious chunk of cash to remedy this problem, so I think it’s going to be a long time before we see anything remotely close to Calgary or Vancouvers downtowns. Sorry but I think anyone who thinks our downtown competes with Calgary’s or Vancouver’s is exhibiting hometown pride and grasping at straws, which is fair.

I don't think a polished look necessarily makes a "good" downtown. Have you been to Montreal? To me, that's more what we should aspire to. Lots of old/grunge/brutalist/graffiti/street art mixed with good contemporary architecture. Vancouver feels pretty sanitized and lifeless in comparison. Edmonton has the older bones to achieve that urban look, but we need to smarten up and start building more streetwall and, yes, I agree that we need to do more sidewalk cleaning.

 

[Oilers99]

As expensive as it is, I still have 20+ friends who live DT and make under 65k. 2-2.5k for rent isn’t cheap. But still very doable without a car and if you’re starting your career. It’s more the actual home ownership that’s impossible there. And I think it’s the impossible home ownership that pushes more young people to spend 5+ years in their core first before bailing to Langley or Kelowna.

Whereas 90% of my friends in Edmonton go from their parents to maybe a basement suite for a bit, then buy a 350-500k house before 27. They spend no season of life DT. Where a lot of Toronto and Vancouver benefit from a ton of young people investing 5 years in the core.

To get back in topic, my hope is that projects like this, with grocery stores and other amenities, and so close to something like rogers that does draw suburbanites into the core temporarily, it will help turn the tide. I have a few friends looking to rent DT soon, they’re stoked about this grocer and are looking more CBD than Oliver because of this and ice district.

The issue is that at $65k, then after taxes $2-2.5k for rent essentially leaves you with zero spending money. Your reasoning above is exactly why Edmonton still works from an affordability perspective.

 

[IanO]

'Whereas 90% of my friends in Edmonton go from their parents to maybe a basement suite for a bit, then buy a 350-500k house before 27. They spend no season of life DT. Where a lot of Toronto and Vancouver benefit from a ton of young people investing 5 years in the core.'

This is the bigger takeaway.

 

[ChazYEG]

'Whereas 90% of my friends in Edmonton go from their parents to maybe a basement suite for a bit, then buy a 350-500k house before 27. They spend no season of life DT. Where a lot of Toronto and Vancouver benefit from a ton of young people investing 5 years in the core.'

This is the bigger takeaway.

My big takeaway is that the suburbanite mentality that more space is always necessarily better is a plague that has taken North America for decades and will take twice as long to eradicate.

 

[David A]

As expensive as it is, I still have 20+ friends who live DT and make under 65k. 2-2.5k for rent isn’t cheap. But still very doable without a car and if you’re starting your career. It’s more the actual home ownership that’s impossible there. And I think it’s the impossible home ownership that pushes more young people to spend 5+ years in their core first before bailing to Langley or Kelowna.

Whereas 90% of my friends in Edmonton go from their parents to maybe a basement suite for a bit, then buy a 350-500k house before 27. They spend no season of life DT. Where a lot of Toronto and Vancouver benefit from a ton of young people investing 5 years in the core.

To get back in topic, my hope is that projects like this, with grocery stores and other amenities, and so close to something like rogers that does draw suburbanites into the core temporarily, it will help turn the tide. I have a few friends looking to rent DT soon, they’re stoked about this grocer and are looking more CBD than Oliver because of this and ice district.

I agree completely with the point on amenities, basic things like a grocery store within walking distance are important (something Oliver has had for a long time but not the CBD). However, I am not sure high suburban housing prices trapping people downtown is really beneficial in the long run. Rent is also much higher in Vancouver and average wages are a bit lower. Eventually many families outgrow the small downtown apartment or condo and look elsewhere (ie. other cities or provinces) to places where larger places are more affordable.