[Oilers99]

Is that any different for the vast majority of citizens in any city? Generally speaking my friends in Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary expect services to be provided and great spaces to explore and enjoy, but are not very engaged or involved. They might not hit Vegas or the Mayan as much, but also do not have the climate and long winters (Calgary somewhat) Edmonton faces and so an escape is justified damnit Edmonton is very much a blue-collar, government and family town.

The bigger challenge for Edmonton is to retrain and attract grads, demonstrate that great opportunity exists, housing is approachable, BUT, and where the bigger issue is in my mind is that those with significant means/capital often leave these days and or are not attracted to Edmonton because it is rather remote, with a challenging climate, substandard urban core, little swagger or excitement and safety issues disproportionate to its size. These folks have choice of where to live, where to place their capital, volunteerism and philanthropy.

I am hopeful that things are going to improve for the City of Champions, but there needs to be much more of a concerted effort by more people in Edmonton to uplift, improve and change perceptions.

The other issue is a lot of young well-educated young people from Edmonton leave for Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto. There was a period that this slowed down for a bit but is starting to happen. The U of A is a world class institution producing incredible graduates but unfortunately a lot of these grads are leaving for the other major Canadian cities (obviously some to the US as well). We need more of these people to stay and start businesses, work at great companies, etc. but unfortunately it is not happening as much as it should.

 

[David A]

These stupid comparisons with Calgary scream low self-esteem.

There are plenty of people who think Calgary, Toronto or Vancouver are superior. That's fine. They can believe that no one wants to live here or that there are no good jobs, but that doesn't make it true. The fact is that when it costs $1M+ for a house in Barrie, regular suburban families are going to start making a choice in larger numbers to move to places where the cost of living is lower and incomes are higher. Despite what some might want to be true, regular people will continue moving to Edmonton in larger and larger numbers.

With that said, the one thing I have to give Calgarians is their relentless boosterism. They are desperate to convince themselves almost as much as others of how great their city is. I wish Edmonton had more of that energy because frankly people who are relentlessly negative don't come off as particularly clever -- in fact, they seem quite provincial in worse sense of the word.

If people want to pay a huge amount of money for overpriced housing, they are fools with money or a big mortgage. I suppose they have to rationalize it so they say they are living somewhere superior, but it is for the most part delusional. Vancouver does have some attributes the other more expensive places don't climate and scenery wise, but the other ones, nope not really that impressive.

I feel bad for the people who grew up and now can't afford to live in the most overpriced places, particularly in Ontario Moving across the country is a big thing and being far away from friends and family is not easy. However, those that can go, they are the smarter ones and they will make here or another more affordable city a better place.

 

[David A]

Is that any different for the vast majority of citizens in any city? Generally speaking my friends in Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary expect services to be provided and great spaces to explore and enjoy, but are not very engaged or involved. They might not hit Vegas or the Mayan as much, but also do not have the climate and long winters (Calgary somewhat) Edmonton faces and so an escape is justified damnit Edmonton is very much a blue-collar, government and family town.

The bigger challenge for Edmonton is to retrain and attract grads, demonstrate that great opportunity exists, housing is approachable, BUT, and where the bigger issue is in my mind is that those with significant means/capital often leave these days and or are not attracted to Edmonton because it is rather remote, with a challenging climate, substandard urban core, little swagger or excitement and safety issues disproportionate to its size. These folks have choice of where to live, where to place their capital, volunteerism and philanthropy.

I am hopeful that things are going to improve for the City of Champions, but there needs to be much more of a concerted effort by more people in Edmonton to uplift, improve and change perceptions.

Its not just the climate - when you don't have to pay an extra $1,000 a month on rent or mortgage payments, you can actually afford a few more trips to Vegas or elsewhere.

Also sorry, but in my mind being stuck in Vancouver in February, when it is dreary and rains a lot, because most of your money is going to rent is not my definition of a great life either.

We have our challenges, of which we are accutely aware of because most of us here live here and care and we need to work on them, but really its not perfect elsewhere even though the grass may seem greener particularly in February.

 

[roe_]

Probably the most accurate and well said statement I've read on here in awhile.

But that's the whole point. I don't think anyone is saying there are no problems here. In fact, it is quite the opposite -- there's a lot of shit that needs to get fixed.

What's grating, for me anyway, is this constant drone from people who are so certain about how terrible it is here. Facts don't lie and most people aren't interested in renting a $4,000/month one bedroom in Gastown because Vancouver is a "city of taste".

 

[thommyjo]

But that's the whole point. I don't think anyone is saying there are no problems here. In fact, it is quite the opposite -- there's a lot of shit that needs to get fixed.

What's grating, for me anyway, is this constant drone from people who are so certain about how terrible it is here. Facts don't lie and most people aren't interested in renting a $4,000/month one bedroom in Gastown because Vancouver is a "city of taste".

“Most people”

125k people live in Vancouver’s downtown peninsula alone, not to mention all of their TODs like Brentwood/Metrotown or areas like kits and UBC.

270k people live in Toronto’s downtown.

The majority of those are very small condos at prices well over 2200 monthly.

Many people are happy to live that way evidently, and many more for a season (but not forever).

Until our $1900 downtown rentals are a better experience than $2600 in Vancouver, we’ll continue to lose our most ambitious and successful young adults.

 

[MacLac]

“Most people who choose Edmonton don’t care.” Couldn’t disagree more……….so the 50,000 folks of those who migrated to AB from other parts of the country in the first quarter of ‘23…..don’t care? Of those, the ones who moved to YEG don’t care? But those that moved to YYC care? Huh?!

 

[quit]

“Most people”

125k people live in Vancouver’s downtown peninsula alone, not to mention all of their TODs like Brentwood/Metrotown or areas like kits and UBC.

270k people live in Toronto’s downtown.

The majority of those are very small condos at prices well over 2200 monthly.

Many people are happy to live that way evidently, and many more for a season (but not forever).

Until our $1900 downtown rentals are a better experience than $2600 in Vancouver, we’ll continue to lose our most ambitious and successful young adults.

Pretty generalized statement to make. Just because you know people moving to Vancouver/Toronto doesn't mean all young adults are moving to Vancouver/Toronto. Plenty of ambitious and successful people choose to stay in Edmonton. Vancouver will always be an attractive place to live in because of its climate, proximity to the ocean, and those inclined to work in the film or tech industry to name a few. Edmonton has its share of attractive industries too.

Brentwood/metrotown/loughheed didn't happen over night. I remember parking at Loughheed or Brentwood and taking Skytrain downtown before there was much development in those spots. Those spots aren't downtown Vancouver - Vancouver literally has nowhere else to build. We should stop comparing Edmonton to the Vancouver market, because we will never be that market, and they are drastically different markets. Vancouver will continue to grow and experience vertical development, but Edmonton will continue to grow too, but with less extreme vertical development, because of how many vacant lots we have and our overall geography and availability of land.

 

[kcantor]

^^
my guess is that very few people moving to either city care all that much and what really influenced their decisions is gainful employment or the real potential for gainful employment without which everything else pales dramatically. these things may become important afterwards but aren’t the primary driver and that’s true pretty much everywhere, not just edmonton and calgary.

 

[Kosy123]

Pretty generalized statement to make. Just because you know people moving to Vancouver/Toronto doesn't mean all young adults are moving to Vancouver/Toronto. Plenty of ambitious and successful people choose to stay in Edmonton. Vancouver will always be an attractive place to live in because of its climate, proximity to the ocean, and those inclined to work in the film or tech industry to name a few. Edmonton has its share of attractive industries too.

Brentwood/metrotown/loughheed didn't happen over night. I remember parking at Loughheed or Brentwood and taking Skytrain downtown before there was much development in those spots. Those spots aren't downtown Vancouver - Vancouver literally has nowhere else to build. We should stop comparing Edmonton to the Vancouver market, because we will never be that market, and they are drastically different markets. Vancouver will continue to grow and experience vertical development, but Edmonton will continue to grow too, but with less extreme vertical development, because of how many vacant lots we have and our overall geography and availability of land.

Yeah I would probably agree here with the young adult portion of the statement. Most young adults I know, like myself (from the 20-28 age range) are still here (and we're all university graduates, undergrad and post grad). Some have moved away, but not a sizeable amount if I'm being honest.

- One moved to BC in 2019, specifically GVA for work purposes. The removal of the Digital Tax Credit actually affected them negatively and pushed her to Vancouver. She'd move back in a heartbeat here due to insane housing costs back there, but is supremely turned off by current Alberta politics.
- One moved to Portland for specialized education and to get away from our political environment.
- One moved to Toronto for a finance job and an "influencer" lifestyle.

It might be different for other circles of friends of course, and I was more involved with a social sciences and healthcare circles more than anything else (which lends itself well to Edmonton's public sector and academia workforces). But at least in my circles, and even those who I know are 16-18 and contemplating leaving Edmonton for UBC or U of T, everyone is just really turned off by the cost of living more than anything else.

 

[ChazYEG]

It’s fast changing now, but Montreal has long been the best “bang for buck” option in Canada. It offers the best urban experience and is the most affordable of the big cities. The city is not as cheap as it was 10yrs ago but it’s still a steal compared to Vancouver or Toronto. As a city, it easily beats Vancouver and while Toronto has more or less ”caught up” and exceeded Montreal lately, Montreal still has a quality that Toronto lacks. Quebec City is even more of a “bang for buck” but it’s even further from people’s radar than Montreal is in Anglo Canada.

I would agree with this, experience-wise, but the language factor doesn't make a good case for Montreal, to most people. If I spoke enough French to get the higher paying jobs, it would probably be my city of choice, in Canada.

Tough take. If you can find a place for 2200 in Vancouver, and don’t have family/friends in Edmonton, how is this comparable? Maybe over a 20 year horizon it’s different. But thousands of young adults are leaving Edmonton for Vancouver for a reason.

The comparison itself was more to Toronto than Edmonton. Vancouver is just as much, if not more expensive than Toronto, as I definitely don't think it's worth it.
I also don't know about the "thousands of young adults" thing. There is certainly a number of them, but I know more people who moved either to Calgary and Toronto than Vancouver, especially for job purposes, wth the notable exception of people in the film and tech industries, and even those are starting to see a lot of success in Alberta, too.

 

[edm13]

Regarding jobs in Edmonton, in my extended family alone, I have family members that work somewhat or totally remote for companies like P&G, Pelican, Baxter and a hedge fund in New York. These would all be quite high paying jobs. Also within my family, I have others who work in finance doing agricultural commodity futures (forget the name) also another working for Finning, and another 2 working for BDC, again all relatively high paying. I used to work in mid market commercial banking, where there was also a team of mid market investment bankers. I now work for an institutional money manager here. All that to say, I don’t disagree that there is more opportunities in other cities, but we do have pockets of opportunity here. Unless my extended family is just a total anomaly, but I’m sure it’s not.

 

[dunno]

“Most people who choose Edmonton don’t care.” Couldn’t disagree more……….so the 50,000 folks of those who migrated to AB from other parts of the country in the first quarter of ‘23…..don’t care? Of those, the ones who moved to YEG don’t care? But those that moved to YYC care? Huh?!

Well, it’s not like 50k wound up in the central city. It’s not like Whyte or Jasper have seen an explosion of vibrancy and new amenities. There’s not question Edmonton is growing fast again, and has an appeal to people, but those people want something decent in Windermere and don’t hang out in bars on Whyte. Which, to be clear, not everybody needs to be. Like Ian alluded to, people in Calgary and Vancouver still go to Costco and do “normal“ things. But the kinds who live in or frequent the urban areas of Edmonton, contributing to their vibrancy, supporting new amenities and businesses, and so on, are what will make Edmonton more interesting, vibrant, and well-rounded.

And just to be crystal clear so that you don’t go into all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking again: I am not saying none of the people come to Edmonton don’t care about its urban experience, I’m suggesting that proportionally fewer than wind up in other major Canadian cities do. There’s still people who move to Toronto to live in Brampton or Oshawa, but there’s also a lot of people choosing Old Toronto, York, East York, and subway-adjacent areas of North York, as well as hubs along the Lakeshore West GO Line (think Port Credit, Downtown Oakville, Mimico). Not car-centric suburbia. And if you think Toronto is too apples-to-oranges, then you can also say similarly of Calgary and Ottawa having more folks living there and wanting and supporting a vibrant city that’s walkable, dense, etc. It’s why Ottawa has the Glebe, ByWard Market, Westboro, and Centretown for vibrant urban neighbourhoods, Calgary has the Beltline, Mission, Kensington, and Inglewood, while Edmonton has… Strathcona.

 

[Tropical]

Well, it’s not like 50k wound up in the central city. It’s not like Whyte or Jasper have seen an explosion of vibrancy and new amenities. There’s not question Edmonton is growing fast again, and has an appeal to people, but those people want something decent in Windermere and don’t hang out in bars on Whyte. Which, to be clear, not everybody needs to be. Like Ian alluded to, people in Calgary and Vancouver still go to Costco and do “normal“ things. But the kinds who live in or frequent the urban areas of Edmonton, contributing to their vibrancy, supporting new amenities and businesses, and so on, are what will make Edmonton more interesting, vibrant, and well-rounded.

And just to be crystal clear so that you don’t go into all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking again: I am not saying none of the people come to Edmonton don’t care about its urban experience, I’m suggesting that proportionally fewer than wind up in other major Canadian cities do. There’s still people who move to Toronto to live in Brampton or Oshawa, but there’s also a lot of people choosing Old Toronto, York, East York, and subway-adjacent areas of North York, as well as hubs along the Lakeshore West GO Line (think Port Credit, Downtown Oakville, Mimico). Not car-centric suburbia. And if you think Toronto is too apples-to-oranges, then you can also say similarly of Calgary and Ottawa having more folks living there and wanting and supporting a vibrant city that’s walkable, dense, etc. It’s why Ottawa has the Glebe, ByWard Market, Westboro, and Centretown for vibrant urban neighbourhoods, Calgary has the Beltline, Mission, Kensington, and Inglewood, while Edmonton has… Strathcona.

If Westboro (Ottawa) and Inglewood (Calgary) qualify as vibrant and urban, while Oliver, Garneau, Ritchie and Westmount do not - there is no reasoning to be had.

 

[thommyjo]

Pretty generalized statement to make. Just because you know people moving to Vancouver/Toronto doesn't mean all young adults are moving to Vancouver/Toronto. Plenty of ambitious and successful people choose to stay in Edmonton. Vancouver will always be an attractive place to live in because of its climate, proximity to the ocean, and those inclined to work in the film or tech industry to name a few. Edmonton has its share of attractive industries too.

Brentwood/metrotown/loughheed didn't happen over night. I remember parking at Loughheed or Brentwood and taking Skytrain downtown before there was much development in those spots. Those spots aren't downtown Vancouver - Vancouver literally has nowhere else to build. We should stop comparing Edmonton to the Vancouver market, because we will never be that market, and they are drastically different markets. Vancouver will continue to grow and experience vertical development, but Edmonton will continue to grow too, but with less extreme vertical development, because of how many vacant lots we have and our overall geography and availability of land.

I’m sure it’s started shifted in 2023. But in 2021 the UofA had a survey showing more than 1/3 of students planned to leave the province after graduating. That’s 2-4k students, just at the UpfA. Not to mention Macewan, uofc, and the dozen other post secondaries we have.

And general sentiments among YAs is pretty easy to pick up on across social media, reddit, instagram, and in circles from all those cities. Edmonton people move elsewhere. But few from other big cities move to Edmonton. (Again, likely starting to change due to sheer force of cost of living…not desirability). What’s beneficial for a city is people being WILLING to pay twice as much in rent to be there because they care that much about the jobs, amenities, and offerings of a city.

To be very clear, I lived in Toronto and almost ended up living in Vancouver, but chose to settle in Edmonton and work remotely due to family & friends, but also because I’m VERY bullish on our city. All my friends in other cities joke about how they’ve never met someone as into Edmonton as I am (a reflection of how most people they’ve met from Edmonton just rag on it and complain).

But I think we should remain focused on areas to improve. Outside of engineering and a few friends at jobber/big 4 accounting, all my friends in finance, law, med, tech, etc head to van/cal/tor.

Partially cause of where jobs are. But also because they were excited by what those cities offered. Most live in condos in the downtowns of those cities. Some friends I have that moved here from elsewhere came reluctantly because of work/finances/family, and all live in homes in the burbs and don’t think highly of the city.

We won’t build a great city by people being forced to live here cause of finances. We need people who WANT to be here and believe in the city.

 

[EdmTrekker]

And we can't build a competitive city with Edmontons high property tax rates. Edmonton 25% higher than Calgary on a 500k home.

https://www.zoocasa.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Frame-88-2-834x2048.png

How Property Tax Differs Across Canada in 2023 | Zoocasa Blog

Before buying a home it's important to consider the various homeownership costs, such as property taxes, that will impact your budget. Discover which cities in Canada have the lowest property tax rates in this comprehensive guide.

www.zoocasa.com