^^ I think some Stony Plain Road businesses complain for the sake of complaining. I don’t think the pawnshops will be there long after Valley Line West opens.
You're not a business owner on SPR, it's not your money and livelihood at risk.

We saw much the same happen on Cambie Street in Vancouver during the Canada Line construction, where businesses withered and died due to the disruption caused by the project. It is also understandable that SPR area business owners, having seen the absolute disaster of the Valley Line Southeast, are wary about what may be in store for the West line. Remember that this is supposed to be a short-term pain, long-term gain situation: businesses (and residents) put up with massive disruption for a certain period, and in return the transit line brings major traffic and exposure to the businesses and area once completed. That is, assuming that a given business survives the construction.

The fact that the Valley Line SE is three years overdue--businesses and residents put up with construction and havoc for years and STILL can't derive any benefits from an operational line--should make business owners and residents along the West route very dubious about anything they are told in terms of timelines.
 
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The point I'm making is that it's now a simple choice to live in a more central location than to live in a newer suburb and be forced to own a car. My suggestion would be to live along the valley west line between Oliver and Jasper place, or the South line between Quarters and Bonnie Doon.

I'm choosing to move centrally for a better quality of life day to day.

I also don't really care for busses, so I'm not really interested in the ride times. I'll stick to the trains, and so will many others.

I'm well aware that people love slick trains more than dingy buses. Frankly it reeks of classism, but that's just my take on it. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that buses, as unsexy as they are, still are the backbone of our transit system, as well as most cities. And regardless of what your preferences are, which seems to include preferring train because "ooh train" rather than potentially faster buses, the fact is that you can already live Downtown (and other central neighbourhoods, including ones without LRT, like Old Strathcona) very easily without a car, and have been able to for a long time. That quality of life, if it includes living car-free, has already existed, all you need to do is get on a bus (I know, scary).

I definitely agree with you that the Valley Line West (like any other LRT expansion) will greatly increase ridership, and it's great that that will happen, but it's because people are acting superficially about it. I would be more optimistic if the Valley Line was properly separated, with signal priority, and everything that makes the Capital Line run so fast and smoothly. But it's not, instead the City has decided a glorified streetcar is what's needed to go across vast distances of this city. And it's not that I'm anti-streetcar either, but there's a time and a place. A streetcar down 95th St or to the Highlands or down 124th St? That makes sense in a way that a streetcar through auto-centric, big-boulevarded Mill Woods does not. But it seems that, like you, the City has chosen to go for things purely on aesthetics. Because sexy low floor tram is the pinnacle of urban cool - it's what they do in Europe!
 
And regardless of what your preferences are, which seems to include preferring train because "ooh train" rather than potentially faster buses, the fact is that you can already live Downtown (and other central neighbourhoods, including ones without LRT, like Old Strathcona) very easily without a car, and have been able to for a long time.
I'll point out one clear advantage of trains over buses, that go way over travel times (which will be, at the very least, comparable to our current bus lines): reliability and previsibility, especially in the winter. Unlike buses, that are intrinsically dependant on traffic (which more often than not, is severely impacted during our long winters), trains can maintain a steady, predictable and reliable headway. This is, oftentimes, more important than travel times, as it gives transit users the ability to plan their trips accordingly and minimize waiting times and exposure to the elements.

As for the travel times, I'm using Bay-Enteprise Station-WEM as an example, as it's the closest station to the future VLW one, towards our main attraction on the line.

By bus, It would take around 35min at 2am, 45min between 7:30 and 9:30am, 50min between 4:00 and 7:00pm, and roughly 40min in the off-peak hours during the day. These times increase in the winter (from 5 to 15 minutes, depending on the day). Travel times from Lewis Farms to Downtown (102 St) are estimated to be at 30 minutes. Even if they're off by 10min (which is a lot) it'll be ~35min to WEM. It's the same as the shortest bus trip you can take, but CONSISTENTLY, all day long, year-round, independent of traffic or weather, save for the occasional unpredictable issue that'll exist in any transit mode (buses break, get into accidents, etc, all the time, for example). If their estimates are correct, it could be at ~25min, which, during rush hours, would be about half of the travel time of the fastest bus (900X) and less than 40% the slowest (2). Off peak it would still be a whole 30% faster than the fastest bus.

Comparing it with car travel times, the same route would take ~20min at 2am, ~30 minutes between 7:30 and 9:30am, and between 35 and 40min between 4:30 and 6:30pm. Note that some of these times are equal, or longer, than the LRT expected travel times, which would make it worth it even for car owners to ditch their vehicles for this trip.

A similar case can be made for Millwoods-DT, if you take the time to look at the average travel times for buses and cars from MWTC to DT, and compare with the estimated 30min on the LRT.

Taking the LRT to WEM (which were using as the main reference point for the VLW) from places like Belgravia, McKernan, Garneau, the U of A (which has a substantial amount of students working at the mall), as well as anything around the Capital Line towards the north, will be at least just as fast, but easier, more reliable and more comfortable, as well.

That's not to mention the very neighborhoods around the whole Valley Line, which will be at 1hr away at the most, from the WEM, for example (just 10min under their current average bus travel times, from MWTC, and that average time saving holds for everything between MWTC and Muttart).

And, of course, there's also more room to increase capacity at a lower cost and less hassle, by easily increasing frequency.
Push comes to shovel, if eventually the city decides to do it, it can give full signal priority to them, making them substantially faster than the buses.

The Valley Line is not perfect, and I would have made changes, if it were up to me (elevated at Bonnie Doon, different alignment on a few sections, building the west portion first). But it will mean a significant improvement to transit and accessibility in Edmonton, especially by linking what is the biggest single travel generator in the city to the train grid.

Adding BRT connections, especially east-west (23 Ave and 137 Ave), and north-south (St Albert Trail/142st and 50st)for example, could make it all work even better, since we're unlikely to ever see train lines on these routes, but they have plenty of space for additional, partially segregated bus lanes.
 
Alldritt is sitting on several plots of land around 149st/SPR and 124st/SPR. I'm surprised that they haven't moved to build on what are 2 of the most obvious TOD sites on the VLE path..
 
It will be interesting to see pedestrian activity around the Valley Line LRT stations once it opens. Edmonton has LRT to residential neighbourhoods, mostly in South Edmonton. For the most part, it's still navigating stairs and escalators en route to the station. The Valley Line will be a short walk for most of the stations, especially in Avonmore, Bonnie Doon and Strathearn. McKernan/Belgravia is probably the closest example on the Capital Line. There has been some evolution of higher density.
 
The central locations are generally more expensive, even though there are deals to be had in some locations. Any family starting out will probably live in the suburbs or even bedroom communities.
Average home in edgemont is more than grovenor, meadowlark, west jasper place, Canora. Idk if “suburbs are cheaper” is that true here. Outside of the high number of townhomes new suburbs offer (which are very good homes and the new “starters”, most people looking for detached homes would be paying more in new suburbs often).
 
I'm well aware that people love slick trains more than dingy buses. Frankly it reeks of classism, but that's just my take on it. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that buses, as unsexy as they are, still are the backbone of our transit system, as well as most cities. And regardless of what your preferences are, which seems to include preferring train because "ooh train" rather than potentially faster buses, the fact is that you can already live Downtown (and other central neighbourhoods, including ones without LRT, like Old Strathcona) very easily without a car, and have been able to for a long time. That quality of life, if it includes living car-free, has already existed, all you need to do is get on a bus (I know, scary).
I'm actually in favour of having BRT but the permanent infrastructure of the valley line is part of a development scheme for these areas as well.

BRT would be great to serve a lot of areas that couldn't justify a full line, but I'm of the opinion it needs to be built properly with actual permanent stations with digital signage and bus only infrastructure like roads and bridges to succeed. Having an actual station vs a sign on the side of the road like this render would help improve the image of busses I think.

6afd51947c84b9b0bc9d076ae3d34196ab3b3229.jpeg
 
^ I agree.
I'll point out one clear advantage of trains over buses, that go way over travel times (which will be, at the very least, comparable to our current bus lines): reliability and previsibility, especially in the winter. Unlike buses, that are intrinsically dependant on traffic (which more often than not, is severely impacted during our long winters), trains can maintain a steady, predictable and reliable headway. This is, oftentimes, more important than travel times, as it gives transit users the ability to plan their trips accordingly and minimize waiting times and exposure to the elements.

As for the travel times, I'm using Bay-Enteprise Station-WEM as an example, as it's the closest station to the future VLW one, towards our main attraction on the line.

By bus, It would take around 35min at 2am, 45min between 7:30 and 9:30am, 50min between 4:00 and 7:00pm, and roughly 40min in the off-peak hours during the day. These times increase in the winter (from 5 to 15 minutes, depending on the day). Travel times from Lewis Farms to Downtown (102 St) are estimated to be at 30 minutes. Even if they're off by 10min (which is a lot) it'll be ~35min to WEM. It's the same as the shortest bus trip you can take, but CONSISTENTLY, all day long, year-round, independent of traffic or weather, save for the occasional unpredictable issue that'll exist in any transit mode (buses break, get into accidents, etc, all the time, for example). If their estimates are correct, it could be at ~25min, which, during rush hours, would be about half of the travel time of the fastest bus (900X) and less than 40% the slowest (2). Off peak it would still be a whole 30% faster than the fastest bus.

Comparing it with car travel times, the same route would take ~20min at 2am, ~30 minutes between 7:30 and 9:30am, and between 35 and 40min between 4:30 and 6:30pm. Note that some of these times are equal, or longer, than the LRT expected travel times, which would make it worth it even for car owners to ditch their vehicles for this trip.

A similar case can be made for Millwoods-DT, if you take the time to look at the average travel times for buses and cars from MWTC to DT, and compare with the estimated 30min on the LRT.

Taking the LRT to WEM (which were using as the main reference point for the VLW) from places like Belgravia, McKernan, Garneau, the U of A (which has a substantial amount of students working at the mall), as well as anything around the Capital Line towards the north, will be at least just as fast, but easier, more reliable and more comfortable, as well.

That's not to mention the very neighborhoods around the whole Valley Line, which will be at 1hr away at the most, from the WEM, for example (just 10min under their current average bus travel times, from MWTC, and that average time saving holds for everything between MWTC and Muttart).

And, of course, there's also more room to increase capacity at a lower cost and less hassle, by easily increasing frequency.
Push comes to shovel, if eventually the city decides to do it, it can give full signal priority to them, making them substantially faster than the buses.

The Valley Line is not perfect, and I would have made changes, if it were up to me (elevated at Bonnie Doon, different alignment on a few sections, building the west portion first). But it will mean a significant improvement to transit and accessibility in Edmonton, especially by linking what is the biggest single travel generator in the city to the train grid.

Adding BRT connections, especially east-west (23 Ave and 137 Ave), and north-south (St Albert Trail/142st and 50st)for example, could make it all work even better, since we're unlikely to ever see train lines on these routes, but they have plenty of space for additional, partially segregated bus lanes.

Do you have a citation on the projected 30mins for the VLSE? When I last saw numbers, it was in the 40-45min range.

I don't mean to suggest the Valley Line is without merit. Overall, I'm glad it's going in. I wish we could have more nuanced discussions here, but the general theme is that criticism is not taken well to. All I'm suggesting is that buses are not a boogeyman and if people (not you per se) could put aside their classism, they'd realize that it compliments the LRT system and gets them even more places. In a place like Edmonton, buses will remain key for some time as we aren't exactly looking to sport New York or Tokyo levels of rail in any of our lifetimes. And, further to that, there are issues with the Valley Line and I wanted to voice those. I feel like I shouldn't have to preface everything I criticize with a "but I still like this aspect or I don't hate that thing outright" but all I'm saying is that the Valley Line West won't be some magical elixir that turns Edmonton into a transit nirvana, as much as I think it will, on the whole, be more of a benefit than not.

The bus travel speeds are dependent on traffic, yes, but a lot of the heightened travel time now on the 900X is due to the LRT construction messing up traffic in general to the west end. But the previous version of the 900X, the 100 Express (which is nearly identical except in name) took about 30mins from WEM to Corona. Which is about the same as the Valley Line will take. Regardless, I don't disagree with your overall point that dedicated rail will have more consistent travel times.

I also don't think that buses are better than LRT. Like anything, they have their flaws. My post was meant to elevate them back up because of how negatively they are perceived by people who think it's beneath them to ride a bus. It was also meant to show that we already have the capability of living car-free in certain, central areas, such as Downtown, even without LRT to all corners of the city yet. And that's great, don't you think? A lot of cities can't say that. There doesn't need to be an either/or with bus vs LRT. We need both, we have both, and I'd suggest people take advantage of both.
 
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^ I agree.


Do you have a citation on the projected 30mins for the VLSE? When I last saw numbers, it was in the 40-45min range.

I don't mean to suggest the Valley Line is without merit. Overall, I'm glad it's going in. I wish we could have more nuanced discussions here, but the general theme is that criticism is not taken well to. All I'm suggesting is that buses are not a boogeyman and if people (not you per se) could put aside their classism, they'd realize that it compliments the LRT system and gets them even more places. In a place like Edmonton, buses will remain key for some time as we aren't exactly looking to sport New York or Tokyo levels of rail in any of our lifetimes. And, further to that, there are issues with the Valley Line and I wanted to voice those. I feel like I shouldn't have to preface everything I criticize with a "but I still like this aspect or I don't hate that thing outright" but all I'm saying is that the Valley Line West won't be some magical elixir that turns Edmonton into a transit nirvana, as much as I think it will, on the whole, be more of a benefit than not.

The bus travel speeds are dependent on traffic, yes, but a lot of the heightened travel time now on the 900X is due to the LRT construction messing up traffic in general to the west end. But the previous version of the 900X, the 100 Express (which is nearly identical except in name) took about 30mins from WEM to Corona. Which is about the same as the Valley Line will take. Regardless, I don't disagree with your overall point that dedicated rail will have more consistent travel times overall.

I also don't think that buses are better than LRT. Like anything, they have their flaws. My post was meant to elevate them back up because of how negatively they are perceived by people who think it's beneath them to ride a bus. It was also meant to show that we already have the capability of living car-free in certain, central areas, such as Downtown, even without LRT to all corners of the city yet. And that's great, don't you think? A lot of cities can't say that. There doesn't need to be an either/or with bus vs LRT. We need both, we have both, and I'd suggest people take advantage of both.
Not the OP but page 16 of the Operation and Maintenance Performance Requirements Agreement says travel times can't exceed 32 mins: https://www.edmonton.ca/sites/defau...rmance Requirements.pdf?cb=1695418669#page=16
 
If anything, the city’s use of the lowest net present value to select the consortium was the main reason for the delay. In my opinion, Transed was the least qualified consortium out of the 3, and I think that if the city had use the highest NPV to select the private partner, the VLSE would be open by now. MovingYEG was a far superior consortium, with more background in LRT construction, but it lacked Canadian companies, so naturally, the city chose the consortium with ellisdon and bombardier.
 
Why are we still talking about an elevated Valley Line as if that was a remote possibility? The costs would have been prohibitively expensive, and it would have been a dead project. I remember the conversations, and with the city councils we had in the past, I'm surprised the line was even built as is.

The Valley Line will be great for many neighbourhoods, and just okay for others. This was a known tradeoff with the tram-train system. Let's be grateful that we didn't end up with the frankensubway that Calgary is about to get.
 

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