[W. K. Lis]

The station box is 150m, the platform is 100m. This means the station doesn't need to be re-excavated to be able to handle a 6-car subway but rather the storage rooms at track level would need to be relocated. The platform lengths of the Sheppard line are only designed for 4-car trains but could easily be expanded to 6-car trains as well.

They will be like unfinished basements in new houses, not included in the square feet of the house because it is unfinished.

 

[Justin10000]

The TTC opted against spacing the LRT stops as if they were subway stations. “We’ve heard that loud and clear.”

Unfortunately certain members will still talk as if only speed matters.

 

[Tewder]

100 metres can handle 5 subway cars.
The problem with this endorsement is that it talks strictly about the tunnel. No one debates the fact that the LRT will be as fast as a subway but the problem arises when the trains exit the tunnels. A transit system is only as good as it's weakest point. All it takes is a traffic light going off line anywhere along Eglinton for the entire system, including the tunnel, to grind to a sreetching halt. Also time saved by the tunnel will be lost as the stops as so frequent outside the tunnel. God help them if there is an accident along the route.
Also, only in Toronto would you have to transfer onto a new train to continue to travel in the same direction ie at Kennedy. If they are going to tunnel that long they might as well use a Metro and elevate it to Kingston.

If they're going to all this trouble anyways they may as well build subway and just do it right. LRT dressed up as subway in parts doesn't fool anybody. Why does this city continue to bungle transit?

 

[Dan416]

If they're going to all this trouble anyways they may as well build subway and just do it right. LRT dressed up as subway in parts doesn't fool anybody. Why does this city continue to bungle transit?

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Eglinton, as it's a completely new line and it is planned to be convertible to subway in the future. What grinds my gears are the LRT lines on current subway corridors (Sheppard and Danforth lines). Because extending the subway a couple stops is so difficult.

 

[yin_yang]

so can anyone account for the $4 billion or whatever they've set aside for this? i think the government is stealing waay too much of our money in this case. they should be able to do it for a billion dollars less and still line their pockets quite nicely.

 

[Fresh Start]

so can anyone account for the $4 billion or whatever they've set aside for this? i think the government is stealing waay too much of our money in this case. they should be able to do it for a billion dollars less and still line their pockets quite nicely.

Considering that Montreal will be able to build 20 kms of bona fide subways, including technical engineering feats such as crossing the St Lawrence, I would hope Toronto could find a way to acheive similar here. I think it's disgraceful that they'll build station boxes long enough to accomodate subway cars but leave the outer portions of platform areas unfinished. How many more millions of dollars will it take to retrofit all the stations, rip out the overhead wires, convert from low-floor to high-floor, convert the trackbeds, etc.? If the cost to construct subways is difficult in 2010, I'd reckon it near impossible in 20-30 years when despite the TTC's best illusions the Eglinton LRT will need to be converted to full-fledged subway. As the Spadina and Sheppard Lines are already proving, underpreforming subways take their time to build up capacity. The same case is applicable to Eglinton Avenue. The gov't, in this case the local one, could find ways to make construction costs a lot closer to the industry standard if only they had the incentive to try.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Eglinton, as it's a completely new line and it is planned to be convertible to subway in the future. What grinds my gears are the LRT lines on current subway corridors (Sheppard and Danforth lines). Because extending the subway a couple stops is so difficult.

BS. Eglinton is subway ready now, to suggest otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the route works. Eglinton handily exceeds the passenger volumes expected along Sheppard by a wide margin (2031 TC perdictions: 2800pphpd SELRT vs. 5400pphpd ECLRT). Sheppard is running out of viable lands for redevelopment meaning the 28,000 daily customers of the 85 bus may not be added on to in significant enough numbers to justify the expense of LRT, let alone subway. A dedicated busway running parallel to Hwy 401 with PPUDO locations at Yorklands-Consumers, VP, Warden, Kennedy, Midland would be both fast and affordable, not to mention run beyond Scarborough Ctr to several points east. Eglinton meanwhile intersects 52 other TTC bus routes. If even 5,000 customers used each stop daily, times 30 that is 150,000ppd. Propping up Eglinton as a subway corridor would also expedite a subway extension to Scarborough Ctr from Kennedy Stn because the pathway likely would follow Eglinton Ave E towards Danforh-McCowan Road. Therefore a 2-pronged expansion could occur, with Eglinton subway continuing in a straight line to Kingston Road. I'm of the camp that it's worth it to receive Eglinton subway incrementally rather than to wind up with a half-baked light rail scheme.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

FS:

I think you should get a better understanding of what PPHPD stands for before applying it so haphazardy to justify your case.

AoD

 

[rbt]

Considering that Montreal will be able to build 20 kms of bona fide subways, including technical engineering feats such as crossing the St Lawrence.

Montreal's accuracy with estimates in the past has been quite poor; in some cases off by an order of magitude (yes, add an extra zero for some past transit projects). Their most recent project (orange line extension) came in about about 3x the estimate.

Tranist City and other Toronto projects have also seen price increases before tendering. Montreals $4B, if a fixed number, may complete 6km to 7km of subway.

 

[nfitz]

Considering that Montreal will be able to build 20 kms of bona fide subways, including technical engineering feats such as crossing the St Lawrence, I would hope Toronto could find a way to acheive similar here.

There's no plans in Montreal to build a subway under the St. Lawrence. It's not particularly difficult either these days. This kind of think was an engineering feat when it was done in the 19th century perhaps.

I'm also unsure why you think Montreal is about to build 20 kms of subways (and don't you need steel wheels to meet the very narrow Toronto definition of subway?). The only think even likely to go ahead in the next 5 years is the one station extension from Saint-Michel to Pie-IX. Beyond that, they might build the 2 station extension from Cote-Vertu to near Porier ... and the yellow-line extension in Longeuil. All three projects have been announced many, many, many times in the last 30 years. All are small extensions of existing lines.

I'm ignoring the numbers you are throwing out ... they are so unrealistic, it's not even worth debating the numbers. I simply refer you to the studies done by professionals that are far more qualified that either of us.

 

[Rainforest]

A dedicated busway running parallel to Hwy 401 with PPUDO locations at Yorklands-Consumers, VP, Warden, Kennedy, Midland would be both fast and affordable, not to mention run beyond Scarborough Ctr to several points east.

A busway running parallel to 401 (rather than within 401) is an interesting suggestion. If it is physically separated from the 401 lanes, then buses can stop without exiting the busway. That would allow much more frequent stops and hence be more useful for trips within Toronto.

However, space might be a problem at some locations. For example, the area where 401 crosses Bathurst and Wilson is pretty much built up, and I can't imagine how two busway lanes would fit without demolishing some buildings.

Though, I am not very familiar with 401's surroundings east of Don Mills; perhaps some space is available there.

 

[Rainforest]

Eglinton handily exceeds the passenger volumes expected along Sheppard by a wide margin (2031 TC perdictions: 2800pphpd SELRT vs. 5400pphpd ECLRT).

The same model predicts about 5,000 pphpd for extended Sheppard subway east of Don Mills, which probably means 7,000 or 8,000 just east of Yonge.

A long Sheppard subway and a long Eglinton subway would likely see similar ridership volumes, given that most of their riders would come from feeder routes rather than walk in. One can even argue that Sheppard would be more useful, since it is a completely new rapid route across the north of 416, whereas Eglinton partly competes with Bloor-Danforth.

However, only Eglinton retains a chance to become a subway in the present environment. A large amount of money for the tunnel is already allocated, so it would just take a political decision to spend them on another technology. No new funding is required for the Phase I of Eglinton subway. In case of Sheppard East, the obstacles to subway are both political and fiscal, and I don't see it having any chance to materialize.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto construction costs are so inflated.
It seems it's going to cost $2 billion to redo and extend the SRT a whopping 6km by 2020. How then id Vancouver {where land prices are twice what they are in Toronto} are going to build a NEW 11 km SkyTrain route by 2014 for $1.4 billion including all new MK11 cars?
That is one of the good things about PPP for mass/rapid transit lines is that there is none of this "escalated" dollars shit. There is a set price which is bid upon and if the project goes over budget the private company pays 100% of all over runs..............there is no threat of the public having to pick up the tab because of "unforseen" expenses like TC where the price doubled in just 18 months.

 

[EnviroTO]

It seems it's going to cost $2 billion to redo and extend the SRT a whopping 6km by 2020. How then id Vancouver {where land prices are twice what they are in Toronto} are going to build a NEW 11 km SkyTrain route by 2014 for $1.4 billion including all new MK11 cars?

Where did the $2B quote come from? The SRT once extended to Sheppard will be about 11km. It will have a new fleet as well.

 

[nfitz]

The Metrolinx study indicated that the 5.4 km extension using Mark II Skytrain equipment would cost $1.15 billion (Option 1 minus Base Case) compared to $452 million for converting the existing line and vehicles to Mark II.

So, it does seem we are more expensive, at $213 million/km for Mark II Skytrain, compared to $127 million/km in Vancouver. A key question is how much of our extension is tunnelled, compared to in Vancouver?

 

[Rainforest]

Where did the $2B quote come from? The SRT once extended to Sheppard will be about 11km. It will have a new fleet as well.

Metrolinx's Five-in-Ten plan for Eglinton, SLRT, Sheppard, Finch, and VivaNext

The total cost of SLRT is projected to be $ 2,465 million in "escalated dollars".

Yes, it includes the new fleet.