[denfromoakvillemilton]

Ford is right about one thing............Eglinton should have been a full Metro to begin with. The idea of having a third of it at-grade along a very busy road was incredibly stupid. It makes the line far more unreliable, more expensive to run due to inability to automate, be much slower, have far lower frequency and hence ridership capacity, and will reek havoc on that busy area of Eglinton.

This was Miller's fault with his "LRT or nothing" transit plan. Finch should have been BRT and Eglinton a full subway. Miller wanted to make sure that no new line in Toronto could be automated to keep his union friends happy. Toronto would be far better served over the long run if the Kennedy to DV section takes a couple extra years to build to ensure it is completely grade separated.

Toronto had no money. I agree Eglinton should have been a subway from the airport to Kennedy or Kingston/Eglinton. I heard the tunnels are big enough to adjust for that in the future, can anyone confirm?

 

[OneCity]

OneCity, you're being a hypocrite. This line is needed for east scarborough, so why would it not be a priority? You're aware that both subways do close to zero for people east of McCowan and especially east of Markham Road. You complain about respect for Scarborough but here you're ignoring UTSC, Port Union, Highland Park and Guildwood just for the sake of Kennedy, Sheppard and McCowan corridors. I expect both subways and this to be priority given that they connect to both mainlines, what about you?

Hardly a hypoctite. I personally gain and fully support the EELRT line even with Its design flaws (thankfully a few issues are currently being addressed from the previous SMLRT proposal)

I was stating the reality this line no longer a Provincial prioity or in line with how that admin wants to see transit built. I am very happy to see the Province take over subways from the polarized City and if it means deferring some LRT projects to to get a proper subway network moving first I'm fully on board.

I truly hope the City at some point is given the opportunity to possibly use the SSE levy and find other ways to fund the bulk of the remaining LRT lines on its own. I mentioned that as its a small but realistic possbility and likely the only way these lines get built in the next decade. There are still many questions and many things would still have to fall in place for this to happen.

I imagine council will be supportive and Tory would have in some way to negotiate something with Ford. Smarttrack and the subways will be first order of business in that discussion. Non grade seperated or car lane removing LRT will take a backseat in any discussion with the Province and require City pressure following to find ways on their own.

 

[BurlOak]

If you want a full graded separated Eglinton line, which year do you expect it to open now and how much more will it cost????????????????

Opening is scheduled for 2021. That's 3.5 years from now. I don't think it can be compelted by then, but I think 2022 or 23 is possible, with maybe the portion from Don Mills to Brentcliffe being expedited and actually meeting the 2021 date so that the first stage could be open before the election.

The cost was right in my post.

 

[BurlOak]

As I said before, aside from fully grade-separating Eglinton to Kennedy being the best long term solution, and something that should have been done from day 1, it also;

1. Helps rebrand the entire project as a PC project. For an investment of $1B to $2B, the entire $10B line will always be remembered as being the line the PC's built.
2. Fulfills his and Rob's long-held desire and 2014 mayoralty campaign to fully grade-separate this line.
3. It returns to the 2011 plan (underground with some elevated sections to save money). This reinforces how the Liberals and City Council has made a mess of transit in the past 7 years. It also dovetails with his belief that City governments need to be restructured.
4. It goes along with his current promise to built grade-separated (i.e. "subway" to the layman) transit.
5. Fits in better with his promise that the Province should own the grade-separated lines and the City own the streetcars.

Ford would be wise to inquire about what the costs would be to grade-separate the line. If the cost is close to or less than $1B, he would likely do it, and maybe pay the entire penalty in this fiscal year so that it can be viewed as a Liberal cost because grade-separating was a Liberal oversight.
If the cost is over $2B, I doubt they would change anything and it would continue as-is.

6. Actually goes into Mississauga (so is a Regional line), and could be extended to Sq.1 in future.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Hardly a hypoctite. I personally gain and fully support the EELRT line even with Its design flaws (thankfully a few issues are currently being addressed from the previous SMLRT proposal)

I was stating the reality this line no longer a Provincial prioity or in line with how that admin wants to see transit built. I am very happy to see the Province take over subways from the polarized City and if it means deferring some LRT projects to to get a proper subway network moving first I'm fully on board.

I truly hope the City at some point is given the opportunity to possibly use the SSE levy and find other ways to fund the bulk of the remaining LRT lines on its own. I mentioned that as its a small but realistic possbility and likely the only way these lines get built in the next decade. There are still many questions and many things would still have to fall in place for this to happen.

I imagine council will be supportive and Tory would have in some way to negotiate something with Ford. Smarttrack and the subways will be first order of business in that discussion. Non grade seperated or car lane removing LRT will take a backseat in any discussion with the Province and require City pressure thfollowing to find ways on their own.

I think the province needs to take over the entire TTC and work with the city to get the EELRT built. Ford won this area too and he should chip if he truly wants to connect Scarborough to the city. Coming from Malvern to STC is still a ~ 20 minute ride even with both subways.

 

[nfitz]

Opening is scheduled for 2021. That's 3.5 years from now. I don't think it can be compelted by then, but I think 2022 or 23 is possible, with maybe the portion from Don Mills to Brentcliffe being expedited and actually meeting the 2021 date so that the first stage could be open before the election.

You seem to be unaware that they've already started construction between Laird and Kennedy, and that section is ALSO opening in September 2021 - only 39 months away. I'm not even aware of Ford promising to cancel this contract.

but I think 2022 or 23 is possible,

Four to five years for subway to open!?! We've seen clearly that the time-frame is 10-12 years. There's years of design work alone!

I don't think the PCs have the stomach for denying Scarborough Line 5 until the 2030s!! Let's be serious here.

 

[Streety McCarface]

You seem to be confused. The Waterfront lines may be local transit (and are already 100% city - no need to delegate), but those other Transit City-like LRT lines like Line 5, Line 6, Eglinton East, etc. are rapid transit and are defined as such by Metrolinx at http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/toronto_lrt.aspx where it states that "The Toronto rapid transit projects are part of The Big Move" with the image shown below.

You are still new here, I'd suggest becoming more acquainted with the terminology!

I wouldn't call any of the surface at-grade sections of the lines "rapid transit". Metrolinx is grossly overstating the average speed these vehicles will be travelling at. A stop every 400 meters, yet speeds greater than the Bloor Danforth subway? Are you sh!tting me?

You seem to be unaware that they've already started construction between Laird and Kennedy, and that section is ALSO opening in September 2021 - only 39 months away. I'm not even aware of Ford promising to cancel this contract.

Four to five years for subway to open!?! We've seen clearly that the time-frame is 10-12 years. There's years of design work alone!

I don't think the PCs have the stomach for denying Scarborough Line 5 until the 2030s!! Let's be serious here.

They could just open the section between science centre and Mt dennis while a viaduct is constructed on Eglinton east. The OMSF is at Mt Dennis so there really are no issues with this proposal.

 

[ssiguy2]

^ Exactly. Open the underground sections as planned and continue the grade separation construction. It may take a couple extra years but it will be well worth it.

You guys don't seem to realize how incredibly lucky you have been in the transit file. There is no other city on the PLANET where upper levels of government pay for 100% of the cost of new transit lines. Toronto is getting Eglinton, Finch, and the entire RER system built without having to put in one plug nickel. As far as Toronto having "no money" that is because they choose not to tax themselves at an appropriate level to account for infrastructure costs. Funny how Ottawa, KW, and London have managed to come up with their one-third share of rapid transit construction but Toronto can't and yet Toronto still bitches. Thing in this world cost money and it's unfathomable that a big city like Toronto still can't seem to get it's head around the idea.

 

[micheal_can]

^ Exactly. Open the underground sections as planned and continue the grade separation construction. It may take a couple extra years but it will be well worth it.

You guys don't seem to realize how incredibly lucky you have been in the transit file. There is no other city on the PLANET where upper levels of government pay for 100% of the cost of new transit lines. Toronto is getting Eglinton, Finch, and the entire RER system built without having to put in one plug nickel. As far as Toronto having "no money" that is because they choose not to tax themselves at an appropriate level to account for infrastructure costs. Funny how Ottawa, KW, and London have managed to come up with their one-third share of rapid transit construction but Toronto can't and yet Toronto still bitches. Thing in this world cost money and it's unfathomable that a big city like Toronto still can't seem to get it's head around the idea.

Sounds to me that is a recipe for another Stubway.

 

[OneCity]

I think the province needs to take over the entire TTC and work with the city to get the EELRT built. Ford won this area too and he should chip if he truly wants to connect Scarborough to the city. Coming from Malvern to STC is still a ~ 20 minute ride even with both subways.

If they do upload all lines the EELRT drops In priority and will be a full design reset.

Best case is for Ford to be clear on his priority lines to to build as subway. SSE, Yonge, Sheppard, DRL and Eglinton West (possible Crosstown to Kennedy if can be cancelled). The work and funding needed to deliver those will ensure EELRT does not get built in our lifetime. But if they make a deal that lets the City pay the bulk of the lower cost surface LRT that is nearing design completion like EELRT, Waterfront, possibly Finch its a win-win for Ford and Tory as it may be the only way those get built.

 

[nfitz]

I wouldn't call any of the surface at-grade sections of the lines "rapid transit". Metrolinx is grossly overstating the average speed these vehicles will be travelling at. A stop every 400 meters, yet speeds greater than the Bloor Danforth subway? Are you sh!tting me?

I'm not sure why you are arguing the nomenclature here. It's called rapid transit. Subway is also an absurd term, given how much of it is at surface in Toronto and New York City. There's more of the London Underground that's not Underground, and many of London's Tube lines are actually cut-and-cover (and above ground). Meanwhile there are Overground lines in London, that are in tube and other tunnels.

Sure, there's a case to be made to eliminate some stops - perhaps this is the kind of common sense, that a transit genius like Doug Ford could push for. But I'm not aware of any forecasts that Eglinton East LRT will have any stretches that are FASTER than the BD subway. Obviously there's other sections of Line 5 that will, with much wider spacings than 400 metres.

They could just open the section between science centre and Mt dennis while a viaduct is constructed on Eglinton east. The OMSF is at Mt Dennis so there really are no issues with this proposal.

Which part of it's already under construction and opening in 39 months did you miss? Obviously that's not going to happen, nor did Ford mention anything like that in the campaign. Surely such a discussion belongs in a fantasy thread!

 

[Streety McCarface]

Sounds to me that is a recipe for another Stubway.

11 km of track connecting to the Spadina and Yonge subways, 3 GO lines, has 3 new bus terminals? I'd say that's pretty good as is. It's longer than the original Yonge line so it is in no ways a stubway.

 

[nfitz]

There is no other city on the PLANET where upper levels of government pay for 100% of the cost of new transit lines.

Where are you getting this from? The last Metro extension in Montreal was 100% paid for by the province, as far as I know. The NYC subway is operated and funded by the State government, not the city government. Crossrail in London is funded by the United Kingdom parliament, not the local councils.

Which makes "what planet are you living on" a fair question!

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'm not sure why you are arguing the nomenclature here. It's called rapid transit. Subway is also an absurd term, given how much of it is at surface in Toronto and New York City. There's more of the London Underground that's not Underground, and many of London's Tube lines are actually cut-and-cover (and above ground). Meanwhile there are Overground lines in London, that are in tube and other tunnels.

Sure, there's a case to be made to eliminate some stops - perhaps this is the kind of common sense, that a transit genius like Doug Ford could push for. But I'm not aware of any forecasts that Eglinton East LRT will have any stretches that are FASTER than the BD subway. Obviously there's other sections of Line 5 that will, with much wider spacings than 400 metres.

Which part of it's already under construction and opening in 39 months did you miss? Obviously that's not going to happen, nor did Ford mention anything like that in the campaign. Surely such a discussion belongs in a fantasy thread!

"Rapid Transit" usually implies grade separation. Many systems use the names Metro or MRT instead, but they're basically the same thing. We just call the equivalent of "rapid Transit" because the bulk of the original system was built underground. Many parts of the new LRT lines are not getting any grade separation whatsoever, even at key intersections and this is what bothers most of us. Build it as a viaduct, I don't care, I just don't want to have an idiot drunk driver block my commute or have "signal priority" that prioritizes left turns, but if I do have to have that on my commute, they better not call it "rapid transit" because that's bullsh!t.

The initial argument was about the other Big Move LRT lines, notably Eglinton East of Don Mills, Sheppard, and Finch. I think it's important that the Finch line be built and other stand-alone lrt lines on streets like Jane and Steeles. The only areas with decent spacing are those that are grade separated, and no one is complaining about that section of the line.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't take that long to build an on-street LRT, here in Waterloo, they did it in 3 years. Seems like they've barely done any work on the surface section thus far. Doesn't mean it's not a waste of money, it just means that a change of plans can still happen.

 

[micheal_can]

11 km of track connecting to the Spadina and Yonge subways, 3 GO lines, has 3 new bus terminals? I'd say that's pretty good as is. It's longer than the original Yonge line so it is in no ways a stubway.

What I mean is that I fear it will end up being like the Sheppard line in that it will not be extended to it's natural length for a really long time.