[AlvinofDiaspar]

This is not possible AFAIK for Muslims, either you are devout or you're not Muslim. Thus, North American who are Judeo-Christains can look at the "violence towards your enemy" in the Bible and discount it in today's pluralistic, free and western times, whereas, I'm not convinced that Muslims are permitted this interpreative freedom.

Wow, that's like the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If there is no "interpretative freedom", as you say, I would imagine all the Muslims in the world regardless of where they live would have been going for a Jihad by now - that is not the case for the majority, and certainly not reflective of the reality of the situation.

There are far more sophisicated arguments regarding the militancy in the Mid-East; for example, the anger is a reflection of the shame/powerlessness brought on by decline since the Ottoman Empire vis-a-vis the rest of Western civilization. Religion is a complicating factor, but to see it as the be all and end all is oversimplfying a complex dynamic.

AoD

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons?

 

[SD2]

People should make a distinction between what a relgion actually teaches and what people will use it to justify. For most of these crimes, religion is nothing more than an excuse...and used by a radical few. Most are not like this...but then what do you expect? The media is not going to cover the peaceful majority.

 

[SD2]

I agree. IMO, but where are the protests when Islam gets hijacked by the radicals?

There were many...just not publicized as much.

My point above is that we're seeing tens of thousands of Muslims protesting in the streets, attacking people and property over some cartoons, but we see no protests of similiar size or scope when people proporting to be attacking for Islam murder thousands of people. Where were the huge protests after 9/11 calling for Bin Laden's capture and trial after he used Islam for murder?

So? People on the other side of the Atlantic are probably asking themselves the same thing...why no consistent, mass protests by the American people over the invasion of Iraq? Why the outrage over the WTC attacks and none by the American people over the crimes of their own government?

Of course, we in NA know that there are many people against the war in Iraq...and many of the other policies of the US government.

Don't take the actions of a publicized minority and apply it to all Muslims.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I am not sure why I am even bothering...

My Muslim friends often tell me that one of the primary differences between Islam and Christianity, as practiced, is that a lot pf western folks who call themselves Christians often go to church a few times a year, skip Lent, rarely look at their bible and take a very liberal view of things. Islam is far more strictly followed, as it is a strict outline and code of how to live your life, including when and how to pray (several times each day), what to wear, what to eat, etc. Now the bible has much of this as well, but no nearly AFAIK as strict.

Oh there we have it - the "my Muslim friend told me" explanation. If Muslims and Islam is as homogenous as you claimed it to be, there would be such a wide divergence in the expression of states with Muslims being the majority population - from the relatively secular Turkey, UAE all the way to the Fundamentalism of Iran and ex-Afghanistan. Perhaps you should ask them why there is no mass protest against the crimes of 9/11?

but why would you say this? A correct following of the Koran would tell you that Jihad is simply a word for struggle, not holly war. The Koran does not call for riots in the streets or violence over such cartoons.

I am not the one who insisted on a singular interpretation of Islam, Muslims and violence.

AoD

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

People should make a distinction between what a relgion actually teaches and what people will use it to justify. For most of these crimes, religion is nothing more than an excuse...and used by a radical few.

I agree. IMO, but where are the protests when Islam gets hijacked by the radicals?

My point above is that we're seeing tens of thousands of Muslims protesting in the streets, attacking people and property over some cartoons, but we see no protests of similiar size or scope when people proporting to be attacking for Islam murder thousands of people. Where were the huge protests after 9/11 calling for Bin Laden's capture and trial after he used Islam for murder?

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Wow, that's like the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If there is no "interpretative freedom", as you say, I would imagine all the Muslims in the world regardless of where they live would have been going for a Jihad by now - that is not the case for the majority, and certainly not reflective of the reality of the situation.

Your opening sentence reminds of that movie Clueless with Alisha Silverstone, "like, no way" I believe was the phrase.

My Muslim friends often tell me that one of the primary differences between Islam and Christianity, as practiced, is that a lot pf western folks who call themselves Christians often go to church a few times a year, skip Lent, rarely look at their bible and take a very liberal view of things. Islam is far more strictly followed, as it is a strict outline and code of how to live your life, including when and how to pray (several times each day), what to wear, what to eat, etc. Now the bible has much of this as well, but no nearly AFAIK as strict.

Now above you've said

I would imagine all the Muslims in the world regardless of where they live would have been going for a Jihad by now

, but why would you say this? A correct following of the Koran would tell you that Jihad is simply a word for struggle, not holly war. The Koran does not call for riots in the streets or violence over such cartoons.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

How often do you see people "protesting" about their internal shame?

AoD

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Okay, perhaps I've gone astray above, blame my newbie status I suppose, as I did not intend to imply that muslims are are homegenous, robot-like group.

I do however think it is quite fair to inquire why, with so many terrible acts commited in the name of Islam, there are no massive protests or Muslim governments calling for Bin Laden's head, while a few cartoons cause riots and burning.

I can't accept that this apparent inconsistency is the fault of the western media, and that there were huge unreported Muslim public protests and demonstrations against violence after 9/11, Beslam, etc. If they occured, the media would have shown them, since it would make great news, the world against terror crosses all religions, sort of story.

 

[SD2]

Okay, perhaps I've gone astray above, blame my newbie status I suppose, as I did not intend to imply that muslims are are homegenous, robot-like group.

I do however think it is quite fair to inquire why, with so many terrible acts commited in the name of Islam, there are no massive protests or Muslim governments calling for Bin Laden's head, while a few cartoons cause riots and burning.

Re-read my previous post. You can make the same argument for "Christian" countries as well.

I can't accept that this apparent inconsistency is the fault of the western media, and that there were huge unreported Muslim public protests and demonstrations against violence after 9/11, Beslam, etc. If they occured, the media would have shown them, since it would make great news, the world against terror crosses all religions, sort of story.

But there were protests...and they were reported...just nowhere near to the extent that the accidents themselves were reported.

If you think the media is going to report every single piece of news accurately, fairly, and equally, then you're being naive (no offense).

 

[allabootmatt]

"I disagree. Just as there are radical troublemakers on the Palestinian side, there are radical troublemakers on the Israeli side who believe that all of the former Palestine is God's promised land to the Jews. Israeli leaders always have to tread carefully as too many concessions can lead to death threats from radical Jews."

Oh, without a doubt. But those people are going to freak out no matter what--they would always be against any withdrawal, for any reason. Yet despite what you see on TV, the VAST majority of Israelis are completely secular--in fact, are some of the most irreligious people you could find anywhere. Keeping in mind that Israel is a democracy (the only real one in the Middle East), it's the secular masses who non-violence would have an impact on. And that would in turn have a big impact on Israeli politics. In the current situation, the violence perpetrated by Palestinians puts many secular Israelis in a frame of mind that justifies brutal retaliation. Take away the terror and replace it with sit-ins, and you'd see a very different reaction from the people in Israel who actually matter.

Also to keep in mind: most orthodox Israelis do not send their kids to serve in the army, thanks to certain exceptions in the conscription policy. The soldiers keeping things orderly in the territories are largely urban and secular. Their commitment to hanging on to the West Bank, and that of their families, is very, very far from fanatical.

 

[ganjavih]

Abeja, I'm not sure why you need to see Muslim outrage to be satisfied. Where was the American outrage when they found out they were lied to by their government and started an illegal war that resulted in the deaths of 25,000 to 100,000 innocent Iraqis? Where was the American outrage when Japan was nuked twice? Where's the outrage?!?

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

But there were protests...and they were reported...just nowhere near to the extent that the accidents themselves were reported.

I would hardly call these events, protests and demonstrations accidents.

 

[SD2]

I would hardly call these events, protests and demonstrations accidents.

I never implied they were accidents...

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

But there were protests...and they were reported...just nowhere near to the extent that the accidents themselves were reported.

Sorry then, but I don't get it. What are you referring to above when you say "the accidents themselves"?