[greenleaf]

More discussion on families in condos: http://www.randomhouse.ca/hazlitt/blog/lets-raise-our-kids-condos

 

[diminutive]

Not to keep beating my drum but, as I have posted in this thread and others, developers are doing this all wrong. Now, with Keesmaat's plan for avenues, we're going to see a lot of opportunities for for high-end midrises, 90-plus square feet in desirable neighbourhoods. My prediction is that there will be much demand, from downsizing boomers (such as ourselves who bought two years ago) and upsizing condo yuppies who don't want the mowing, raking, shovelling, commuting etc. They're used to the condo lifestyle and have come up with strategies, as have Montrealers, new Yorkers, Parisians etc., to raise families and have dogs in larger flats.

Next week there's a community meeting at Eastminster United regarding the plan for Broadview, between Pottery Rd and Danforth and, while I am sure some Playter Estates folks will protest, I say bring them on. Just stick to the plan: no taller than the street is wide, five hours of sunshine minimum, setbacks, street life. No exceptions, no running to the OMB, no messing with the valley/ravine the way the Minto Skyy did.

Those condos on Queen E. between Woodbine and Pleasantville are just great in my books.

I think too many developers lack imagination.

I don't understand how this is really the fault of developers, or how mid-rise buildings would hugely alter the balance to favour families. The cost of construction for a mid or high rise structure will almost always be higher, per sf, than for wood-frame houses, and in so far as families tend to want bigger living spaces, this will lead to less demand for family sized units.

I'm hardly an expert, but the floorplans of the midrise buildings I've seen seem to be nearly indistinguishable from high rise buildings, with similar unit sizes and similarly skewed towards 1 beds.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

I'm hardly an expert, but the floorplans of the midrise buildings I've seen seem to be nearly indistinguishable from high rise buildings, with similar unit sizes and similarly skewed towards 1 beds.

Yes, but they don't HAVE to be.

And while the cost per sf may be lower (I don't know that it is) for single family homes, I can't imagine that, once you factor in the land costs, it is still cheaper. But I am no developer. I just know that there is a huge market out there waiting for the right "flats" as we call them in Montreal, New York and the rest of the civilized world.

 

[diminutive]

Yes, but they don't HAVE to be.

Well, yes, they kinda do.

If new build condos are coming in at 600$ per square feet, demand for condo units will overwhelmingly skew towards smaller households.

It's always popular to bash developers, but how many families will really be lining up to lay down 800k on a condo (which is half the size of many suburban homes)? The evidence from projects thus far is that these units tend not to sell.

And while the cost per sf may be lower (I don't know that it is) for single family homes, I can't imagine that, once you factor in the land costs, it is still cheaper. But I am no developer. I just know that there is a huge market out there waiting for the right "flats" as we call them in Montreal, New York and the rest of the civilized world.

Depends on the relevant land values. Hard and soft construction costs for homes are substantially lower than for mid or high rise projects. I think the typical home project in the GTA comes in at 100-300$/sf (w/out land costs), which would be less than any given high or mid-rise project. Components like elevators, underground parking, concrete construction and such really do add to project costs.

The problem with Toronto is the only places you tend to find new homes being built are either 1.) downtown condos or 2.)what's left of the developable greenfield areas in the 905. The best way to accommodate families would be to facilitate older housing units in the 416 to be redeveloped into denser units. For instance, more townhomes, more backyard flats, more duplexes ect...

You mention the "rest of the civilized world" (rightly), but nowhere else on earth is there the expectation that >90% of densification has to take place in the CBD or along tightly cordoned 'Avenues.' Obviously you've traveled enough to have noticed that in most cities it's quite common to find fairly dense housing options on side streets and such. In Toronto, not so much.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Well, yes, they kinda do.

If new build condos are coming in at 600$ per square feet, demand for condo units will overwhelmingly skew towards smaller households.

It's always popular to bash developers, but how many families will really be lining up to lay down 800k on a condo (which is half the size of many suburban homes)? The evidence from projects thus far is that these units tend not to sell.

It's not about bashing developers but about what the growing market wants and needs. If people want family-sized sedans and wagons, will you keep churning out SmartCarts, mini Coopers and Fiats? How long before you have lots full of teeny cars but no buyers?

Single family detached homes are about to scrape by $1M on average in the core. Upsizing Millennials from Liberty Village and CityPlace like condo life in core areas and have no hope in hell of affording houses in Riverdale or Bloordale. By the time family-sized condo get built in central areas, they will seem like a bargain compared to houses for which there is no land to build on. You don't need a car, you can walk, and, in the establish neighbourhoods, there are schools, parks etc.

It's like the old argument between those who believe living in the burbs in a McMansion with a large lot is more desirable, despite the two-three cars and commutes, than living in a semi downtown is.

If you build them, they will come.

And don't forget the downsizers now cashing out of Riverdale, the Beach, the Annex etc. They won't live in 500 sf glass boxes in buildings filled with partying students and hookers, believe me.

The problem with Toronto is the only places you tend to find new homes being built are either 1.) downtown condos or 2.)what's left of the developable greenfield areas in the 905. The best way to accommodate families would be to facilitate older housing units in the 416 to be redeveloped into denser units. For instance, more townhomes, more backyard flats, more duplexes ect...

But first you have to bulldoze.

In the meantime most of what I am seeing is teardowns and infill housing, or massive gut jobs and second and third storey additions all across East York.

You mention the "rest of the civilized world" (rightly), but nowhere else on earth is there the expectation that >90% of densification has to take place in the CBD or along tightly cordoned 'Avenues.' Obviously you've traveled enough to have noticed that in most cities it's quite common to find fairly dense housing options on side streets and such. In Toronto, not so much.

Sure, Montreal has its wonderful rows and rows of duplexes and triplexes all over older parts of town. But I look around here and see a lot of single family homes on major arteries rich with transit -- Broadview and Pape north of Danforth come to mind -- and I see AVENUE and mid-rises in my mind.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

The Star is on the need for larger condos downtown(ish) ...

Condo sales surge as house prices climb | Toronto Star
http://on.thestar.com/TWa6mD

<“I’m seeing people really changing their expectations now and asking, ‘Do we want that house or do we want the city?’ †says realtor Lauren Haw. “Obviously houses are still hot and that’s not going to cool down anytime soon, but we’re really seeing the comeback of the condo.â€

Surprisingly, a good number of young buyers now are just like the 33-year-old Nevolovich: They got hooked on condo life close to city amenities but were forced out of their one-bedroom suites when their babies were born, only to find that life in a big house with a killer commute to work just wasn’t worth the price.>

 

[Mr.Tang]

A few issues I see: The developers do need to find a way to limit amenities so that the condo fees on such larger units are not prohibitive. It is also difficult for people to tie up that much money on a deposit for larger units while the building is being initially built. Lastly, these units need to be built in desirable school districts - I feel like quality of education for your kids is going to trump most people's lifestyle wants.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

A few issues I see: The developers do need to find a way to limit amenities so that the condo fees on such larger units are not prohibitive. It is also difficult for people to tie up that much money on a deposit for larger units while the building is being initially built. Lastly, these units need to be built in desirable school districts - I feel like quality of education for your kids is going to trump most people's lifestyle wants.

Those are excellent points.

I am from Montreal, obviously, where people raise children in duplexes and triplexes and low rises without a second thought. Most of these are in long-established areas, with schools. So I see what you're saying.

But I suspect that many of the young people now in downtown condos are refugees from the burbs and do not want to return, and don't want their kids to grow up with the same experience, and don't want to be like their parents with long commutes and then busy weekends taking care of the house and chauffeuring the kids everywhere.

They like that they can pick up dinner on their walk home from work or that they can easily go go a local restaurant instead of a drive-through or line up at a Jack Asters.

I also believe baby boomers who downsize want decent-sized places where their out-of-town children and grandchildren can stay overnight and where they are close to their old communities. We moved less than a mile from our house and I didn't have to change my bank or my dry cleaners or anything. I can still walk to them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Question: what if these families and developers spread to places along queen street ie Riverdale, Leslieville, Parkdale, would that help the demand?

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Question: what if these families and developers spread to places along queen street ie Riverdale, Leslieville, Parkdale, would that help the demand?

Isn't that essentially the official plan, with low-med rises on "avenues?" For example, here in Riverdale-ish, Pape and Broadview north of Danforth are both designated for such zoning. My guess is, the right builds would sell. There are schools, parks, transit, shopping ...

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Isn't that essentially the official plan, with low-med rises on "avenues?" For example, here in Riverdale-ish, Pape and Broadview north of Danforth are both designated for such zoning. My guess is, the right builds would sell. There are schools, parks, transit, shopping ...

That's what I was thinking, but many of these condo families tend to stay in the official downtown or Liberty Village. I think the issue is that developers need to change the way they look at the market.

 

[greenleaf]

This is not related to families in Toronto, but Vancouver. An interesting stat and tidbit in this G&M article:

"Vancouver’s chief housing officer, Mukhtar Latif, in a presentation on affordable housing to city council last week, reported that more than 11,000 families with children are living in studios or one-bedroom units in the city. The trend is so pronounced that it’s skewing school planning. A new school that is about to be built near Chinatown has had to have more space tacked on at the last minute. Planners never expected that so many children would appear in the areas nearby, because most of the units were small. It turned out they were wrong."

Is this the shape of living in downtown Toronto with kids to come?

 

[lead82]

Yes it definitely is. As housing gets more expensive and jobs from the new economy continue to cluster downtown, more people will be forced to live in condo apartments as houses become unaffordable for everyone but the top 1-5%. People will adjust and live and raise families in smaller spaces. Look at North York Centre as an example. No planners expected many kids to be living in the high rise corridor along Yonge. There are hundreds of kids there of all ages and all the neighbourhood schools are overfilled and kids need to be bussed to other schools. Similar things will happen downtown. The city better start preparing land for schools and parks downtown as those young couples living downtown will start having kids and not all of them will want to move to the suburbs and adopt a 60-80min commute each way.

 

[James]

^ I agree. As much as I, and others, don't like to directly compare Toronto to other cities in the world, we only need to look at their city architecture to realize that in highly dense thriving city cores, it's inevitable that families will adapt and adopt the high-rise lifestyle. It's hard to fathom now since we still have options and any major shift is going to be gradual and stretched out over quite a period of time, but it will happen and when it does, we'll look back and reminisce about the good old days.

Time changes things and things change with time. I know someone whose grandparents were debating buying a house out in the countryside way back when...in a neighborhood now known as the Bridle Path. We still chuckle about that one today.

 

[chloe22]

The Star is on the need for larger condos downtown(ish) ...

Condo sales surge as house prices climb | Toronto Star
http://on.thestar.com/TWa6mD

<“I’m seeing people really changing their expectations now and asking, ‘Do we want that house or do we want the city?’ ” says realtor Lauren Haw. “Obviously houses are still hot and that’s not going to cool down anytime soon, but we’re really seeing the comeback of the condo.”

Surprisingly, a good number of young buyers now are just like the 33-year-old Nevolovich: They got hooked on condo life close to city amenities but were forced out of their one-bedroom suites when their babies were born, only to find that life in a big house with a killer commute to work just wasn’t worth the price.>

Rent a house in close proximity to the downtown? bit more than a condo - I see a lot of houses for rent now in toronto.