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What do you believe should be done about the SRT?


  • Total voters
    190
Maybe we should - they say they are all big on public consultation, etc. - or was that just all hot air? Anyone know the best way to contact them?

If I were a Scarborough councillor, I'd be trying to push on this.

The Scarborough councillors don't care. Look how easily they folded at the last great TTC consultation 2 years ago. Raymond Cho, my idiot civic leader is just happy he gets to cut the ribbon on some sort of rail line to Malvern. That should guarantee re-election for at least another decade or so. He's not about to promote a subway that does not seem (to him anyway) to benefit his ward.

I hope Metrolinx can stop the madness. But I am not holding my breath.
 
I hope Metrolinx can stop the madness. But I am not holding my breath.
Metrolinx will not by themselves stop the madness. If the Scarborough councillors got together and pushed, then they could stop it. The same way we've seen things on the DRL start to change, when City Hall suddenly realised that the DRL might actually make more sense than a $1-billion Bloor-Yonge rebuild.
 
The report was done by a Vancouver firm, which may explain why options to keep/extend the RT weren't immediately tossed...conspiracy theories are fun!

The Scarborough councillors don't care. Look how easily they folded at the last great TTC consultation 2 years ago. Raymond Cho, my idiot civic leader is just happy he gets to cut the ribbon on some sort of rail line to Malvern. That should guarantee re-election for at least another decade or so. He's not about to promote a subway that does not seem (to him anyway) to benefit his ward.

I hope Metrolinx can stop the madness. But I am not holding my breath.

Cho won't get any votes if the RT is extended (for one thing, Centennial is the main theoretical beneficiary and commuter students don't vote at school), but he will lose some if it's closed for 3 years.
 
Any suggestion on who to write at Metrolinx to suggest that they break the study into two parts?
 
My email:

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: August 30, 2008 6:07 PM
To: srt@toronto.ca; councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca; councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca; councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca; councillor_cho@toronto.ca
Cc:
Subject:

The 2009 - 2013 Capital Budget and 10 - year forecast details some very revealing information regarding the planned Scarborough RT (SRT) extension. While there is no doubt that rail service needs to be extended beyond Scarborough Centre into Malvern, the TTC's proposed implementation as detailed below (from the report, pg 10) will be a fiscally irresponsible deployment of transit dollars:

Scarborough Rapid Transit - the TTC’s plans for conversion of the existing SRT line ($254 million) and replacement of the existing fleet of SRT cars ($221 million) could be combined with the MoveOntario 2020 initiative to extend the SRT line into the Malvern community ($1.24 billion) for a total combined project in the order of $1.7 billion.

At the price described for the SRT extension, the cost per kilometre will be more than the cost of the Sheppard subway. How can the TTC justify the expenditure when the potential for ridership growth along the extension corridor cannot justify any system higher than light rail? What's more the proposed ART Mark II vehicles could prove to have insufficient capacity for the Scarborough Town Centre to Kennedy station leg, from the first day of operation. The TTC would also be forced to continue having an additional rail system in its inventory for a relatively short rail line, along with all the attendant costs from lack of commonality with other rail systems in its fleet. And the worst complaint, would be the impact of the SRT extension, a heavy rail line, on those residents would will be the immediate neighbours of the extension in Malvern along the right-of-way that will be used.

The far more sensible and cost effective solution would be to immediately begin studies to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway line to Scarborough Town Centre, and to begin planning for the deployment of light rail (under the Transit City plan) along the proposed SRT extension route from Scarborough Town Centre to Malvern Town Centre. This would:

1) eliminate the transfer at Kennedy station for most Scarborough residents who already use the SRT while keeping the number of transfer for Malvern residents the same: 1 at Scarborough Town Centre
2) increase capacity along the current SRT routing
3) allow the current SRT to be kept in operation during the construction and transition period, instead of using buses as currently planned
4) allow the integration of the SRT extension with other LRT lines in the Transit City plan. For example, the Scarborough-Malvern LRT could be routed back to Scarborough Town Centre instead of having Malvern Town Centre as its terminus
5) save the TTC significant operating expenditures through fleet commonality with other LRT lines
6) reduce the impact (noise, vibration, etc.) on Malvern residents who live along the route of the proposed extension

Most significantly of all, the proposed option could be executed at the same cost or for less than what the city proposing for the refurbishment and extension. At 5-6 km, the extension of the Bloor-Danforth line would not cost more than $1.5 billion ($250 million per km), and the 6km SRT extension could be built for $240 million (using Transit City cost estimates). At a generously overestimated total cost of $1.74 billion, the above proposal would far more effective at serving the residents of Scarborough, and the Malvern community in particular. And would save the TTC significant costs and hassle in its deployment.

I implore you to reconsider your plans and make the appropriate far-sighted decision for the residents of North East Scarborough. A well planned of combination of heavy rail and light rail will serve us far better than a one-size-fits-all SRT extension.
-------------------
Response from the TTC:

Thank you for your email on this project – I apologise for the delay in responding.

As you may be aware, in 2006 we undertook a detailed study of strategic options for the Scarborough RT which is attached. This work concluded that the refurbishment of the Scarborough RT would be more cost-effective than replacing it with a subway. In our more-recent work on the possible extension of the Scarborough RT to Malvern Town Centre we revisited this conclusion, and have confirmed that, even with the proposed extension, the basic passenger and economic tradeoffs favour terminating the subway at Kennedy and continuing with a lower-cost rapid transit mode to the north and east.

We have not, as yet, determined the type of vehicle we plan to operate on this new line, however. The required capacity could be provided with either LRT vehicles in 3-car trains or newer, longer, versions of the current “RT” trains. If LRT vehicles are chosen, they will have the benefits you identify in your note related to having a common fleet and the opportunity for common use of yards etc. and this is a consideration in the selection of vehicle type. When we have completed this assessment we will be looking for community input as part of the Proposed Extension of the Scarborough Rapid Transit (SRT) project and look forward to any additional comments you have at that time.

Thank you for your interest in improving transit services in Toronto.
_____________________
Bill Dawson
Superintendent of Route and System Planning
Service Planning Department
Toronto Transit Commission
( Phone : 416-393-4490
2 FAX : 416-338-0400
* E-mail : bill.dawson@ttc.ca

----------

Also enclosed was the Scarborough RT Strategic Plan (too big to upload here)....

So who wants to draft a response to Mr. Dawson?
 
So, I do want to write back....can anybody help prove that a Bloor-Danforth extension is cost effective?
 
So, I do want to write back....can anybody help prove that a Bloor-Danforth extension is cost effective?

They seem to have made up their minds on not having a subway,,, but they also seem to be leaning towards a LRT option, but without actually saying it.

So I think you need to compare a subway option to LRT instead of SRT,
 
They don't want a[ny] subway...it's basically not an option now unless the province forces them to build it (which they won't, otherwise a subway extension would have been included in the analysis). Spadina and Yonge extensions are York Region + province initiatives, while the potential DRL will only have marginal and grudging city acceptance because it's painfully, obviously, acutely necessary (and not just the best and most logical option out of multiple alternatives like a subway extension to STC is).
 
I think, the key here is to convince Metrolinx. That's why I am trying to respond to the Benefits Case study as well.

What we really need is a facebook group fighting for the extension of the bloor-danforth subway to STC.
 
Come on folks. I know the DRL is the hot topic of the day, but surely pushing the community's interest on the BD line makes sense. I would love to have the folks who set up the facebook group for the DRL do the same for a Bloor-Danforth extension. Help Scarborough out!
 
So, I do want to write back....can anybody help prove that a Bloor-Danforth extension is cost effective?

well couldn't they just convert the current SRT yard into a subway yard for the bloor'danforth line?, maybe that should be considered, that way they woldn't have to build a new subway yard along bloor-danforth from scratch??
 
...

-------------------
Response from the TTC:

Thank you for your email on this project – I apologise for the delay in responding.

As you may be aware, in 2006 we undertook a detailed study of strategic options for the Scarborough RT which is attached. This work concluded that the refurbishment of the Scarborough RT would be more cost-effective than replacing it with a subway. In our more-recent work on the possible extension of the Scarborough RT to Malvern Town Centre we revisited this conclusion, and have confirmed that, even with the proposed extension, the basic passenger and economic tradeoffs favour terminating the subway at Kennedy and continuing with a lower-cost rapid transit mode to the north and east.

...

One can respond that the cost saving due to "a lower-cost rapid transit mode" can only be realized if the whole planned network can be built cheaper. The per-km cost of the specific section may not be indicative.

Hence, since "Option 1", aka extending RT to Malvern Centre for 1.6 B is included in the shortlist, there is no reason not to add "Option 5", aka subway to STC plus light rail beyond it, for about same cost.
 
One can respond that the cost saving due to "a lower-cost rapid transit mode" can only be realized if the whole planned network can be built cheaper. The per-km cost of the specific section may not be indicative.

Hence, since "Option 1", aka extending RT to Malvern Centre for 1.6 B is included in the shortlist, there is no reason not to add "Option 5", aka subway to STC plus light rail beyond it, for about same cost.

That's part of my approach...calling for a fuller study.

Yes, I know their biased and they've mad their minds. That does not mean it's not worthwhile to challenge their views and get those views in a document.
 
well couldn't they just convert the current SRT yard into a subway yard for the bloor'danforth line?, maybe that should be considered, that way they woldn't have to build a new subway yard along bloor-danforth from scratch??

I don't think that the extension called for a new yard per se. Correct me if I am wrong but capital costs just included vehicles and stations to my knowledge.
 

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