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What do you believe should be done about the SRT?


  • Total voters
    190
Personally I think the SRT should be dismantled entirely, replaced by subway to STC, and that way we can use blue again on the Eglinton line
I have to say I like subway to STC, with the SRT extension becoming LRT and the Stouffville GO line double tracked along the existing SRT track to begin adding passing space for all-day trains.

I'd make the Eglinton LRT stop at Kennedy a through stop and terminate the route at Guildwood VIA station, since many East Yorkers might use it via Kennedy rather than Union for eastbound trains if it was equally easy to access to save 17 minutes each way.
 
I think replacing the SRT with LRT from STC to wherever the hell Scarberians want an LRT to go is fine.
 
I hope all of you guys are communicating your ideas to the TTC:

srt@toronto.ca

I have written in, letting them know that I think the SRT should be scrapped and replaced with BD line extension and LRT for the rest of the proposed extended route. I urge all of you to make your views known.
 
Speculation on the TTC's course of action

I realize that the COA that the TTC picked for the SRT is not popular in this forum and I agree with the criticisms but I think we should consider why they picked what they did:

1) Cost. The RT cost's about 360 million to refurbish and 840 million to extend to Malvern for a total project cost of 1.2 billion dollars. Extending the BD line was likely to cost at least 1.2 - 1.5 billion dollars and the TTC would also have to invest another 160-200 million in constructing an Transit City style LRT to Centennial College and Malvern Town Centre. Total project cost would have been from 1.4 to 1.7 billion dollars.

2) Timeline. The SRT is rapidly approaching the end of its useful life (2015). Given the timespan for most subway projects in this city, refurbishment may well have been the most expedient option that fit the time constraints.

3) Minimum disruption. The TTC figures that the refurbishment will only take 6 months. That's quite a different experience from the rest of the TC projects. Though disruption is probably not a significant driver in network planning.

4) Political backlash. Residents who live along the current RT alignment are probably not going to like it when a subway is built and the alignment is different (ie Danforth-McCowan or Brimley/Ellesmere). They would see home prices drop since they are not near a rail line. And they'll have to take buses to access the new subway. Lastly, they could see the loss of a station....Midland. These unhappy people would doubtless put pressure on the TTC to maintain the status quo.

While I don't agree with the TTC's decision. I think the extra 500 million would have been a smart investment that would have brought them reduced costs (getting rid of the SRT,. I think we have to appreciate that the planners face some major considerations and challenges when making this decision.

The decision to extend the BD line would surely have driven calls to finish the Sheppard subway, adding further cost and complications and possibly risking the entire Transit City concept. We have to appreciate the fact that the TTC is doing its best to improve service throughout the 416. Hopefully, we'll see a BD line to STC within the next 25-35 years.
 
I realize that the COA that the TTC picked for the SRT is not popular in this forum and I agree with the criticisms but I think we should consider why they picked what they did:

1) Cost. The RT cost's about 360 million to refurbish and 840 million to extend to Malvern for a total project cost of 1.2 billion dollars. Extending the BD line was likely to cost at least 1.2 - 1.5 billion dollars and the TTC would also have to invest another 160-200 million in constructing an Transit City style LRT to Centennial College and Malvern Town Centre. Total project cost would have been from 1.4 to 1.7 billion dollars.

2) Timeline. The SRT is rapidly approaching the end of its useful life (2015). Given the timespan for most subway projects in this city, refurbishment may well have been the most expedient option that fit the time constraints.

3) Minimum disruption. The TTC figures that the refurbishment will only take 6 months. That's quite a different experience from the rest of the TC projects. Though disruption is probably not a significant driver in network planning.

4) Political backlash. Residents who live along the current RT alignment are probably not going to like it when a subway is built and the alignment is different (ie Danforth-McCowan or Brimley/Ellesmere). They would see home prices drop since they are not near a rail line. And they'll have to take buses to access the new subway. Lastly, they could see the loss of a station....Midland. These unhappy people would doubtless put pressure on the TTC to maintain the status quo.

While I don't agree with the TTC's decision. I think the extra 500 million would have been a smart investment that would have brought them reduced costs (getting rid of the SRT,. I think we have to appreciate that the planners face some major considerations and challenges when making this decision.

The decision to extend the BD line would surely have driven calls to finish the Sheppard subway, adding further cost and complications and possibly risking the entire Transit City concept. We have to appreciate the fact that the TTC is doing its best to improve service throughout the 416. Hopefully, we'll see a BD line to STC within the next 25-35 years.

Scarberian will refute every one of those points. Especially the cost one. *Waits*
 
Scarberian will refute every one of those points. Especially the cost one. *Waits*

I am interested in Scarberian's views, so I can get a better understanding of what's going on.

Like I said, I support extending the BD line, completing the Sheppard subway, and scrapping the RT extensions in favour of an LRT to Malvern....all despite being a Malvernite.

But, the city government has to govern for all areas including Scarborough. I am willing to understand if they have to compromise on some projects to push others forward. From their perspective, maybe the RT extension will be quick and cheap.
 
I realize that the COA that the TTC picked for the SRT is not popular in this forum and I agree with the criticisms but I think we should consider why they picked what they did:

1) Cost. The RT cost's about 360 million to refurbish and 840 million to extend to Malvern for a total project cost of 1.2 billion dollars. Extending the BD line was likely to cost at least 1.2 - 1.5 billion dollars and the TTC would also have to invest another 160-200 million in constructing an Transit City style LRT to Centennial College and Malvern Town Centre. Total project cost would have been from 1.4 to 1.7 billion dollars.

By the TTC's own figures, as you've shown, the cost of finishing the BD is roughly comparable to refurbishing the RT and extending it up to Malvern. All that's leaving aside the fact that it costs the TTC as much to build 5km of subway with two stops as it costs Vancouver to build over 18km of RT with 16 stops, mostly underground. I'm sure with serious examination of elevated/surface options, the TTC could shave the subway extension cost under $1 billion. But I digress.

Again, by the TTC's own numbers, less than a quarter of riders on the RT are actually going to Malvern. That means that this $1.2 billion expenditure will do absolutely nothing to improve transit to over three quarters of transit riders in north and central Scarborough. Nothing for Milliken. Nothing for Alton Towers. Nothing for Woburn. Nothing for UTSC. Worst of all, it does nothing for Scarborough Centre. By contrast, an identical expenditure to extend the subway will significantly improve service for well over 95% of riders (excluding those in the immediate vicinity of Ellesmere station, the least busy on the entire TTC network). Everybody in Scarborough will enjoy the elimination of the unnecessary and inconvenient Kennedy transfer, and will shave 10 minutes (or more during one of the RT's routine outages) off every single trip. Recall that the RT is also thoroughly overcrowded, so much so that the TTC is obliged to provide parallel express buses to relieve the pressure. These new RT cars will offer only a marginal capacity improvement at great cost. No doubt they'll also be overcrowded in a few years.

I have spoken to several senior planners from the Scarborough district, and all are completely baffled by the TTC's plans. They can't understand why Scarborough Centre is being relentlessly bypassed, despite being the major designated growth centre in the official plan, by far the biggest destination, and the hub of most buses in Scarboough.

As for Malvern, a major and instant improvement could be provided though the introduction of a Neilson express bus. If Malvern needs a billion dollar RT and two billion dollar streetcars, surely it merits an express bus! The current Neilson route takes half an hour to wind its way down Ellesmere and though the hospital. If it used a shoulder bus lane on the 401 (similar to the arrangement on the 403) from McCowan to Neilson, it could potentially provide quick service from Malvern to major destinations like Scarborough Centre and downtown. All this at a cost measured in the thousands, not billions.

2) Timeline. The SRT is rapidly approaching the end of its useful life (2015). Given the timespan for most subway projects in this city, refurbishment may well have been the most expedient option that fit the time constraints.

In every other city on earth, it doesn't take a decade and a half to build a subway line.

3) Minimum disruption. The TTC figures that the refurbishment will only take 6 months. That's quite a different experience from the rest of the TC projects. Though disruption is probably not a significant driver in network planning.

A parallel subway would also provide the immense benefit of keeping the RT open thoughout the construction period. The refurbishment will require closure for up to a year (or much more if the TTC's as good at keeping to timelines as it was on St. Clair), which would push many riders to other modes. It might not be easy to attract them back with no improvement to their service other than slightly bigger and newer cars at the end of it all.

4) Political backlash. Residents who live along the current RT alignment are probably not going to like it when a subway is built and the alignment is different (ie Danforth-McCowan or Brimley/Ellesmere). They would see home prices drop since they are not near a rail line. And they'll have to take buses to access the new subway. Lastly, they could see the loss of a station....Midland. These unhappy people would doubtless put pressure on the TTC to maintain the status quo.

Countless public meetings were held a few years ago on the subject of replacing the RT, and the overwhelming majority of Scarborough residents demanded a subway. I attended all of those meetings and I didn't hear a single person voice the complaint you're suggesting (though one did express concern about the pernicious effects of electromagnetic radiation, and there was the obligatory monorail proposal).

Potential subway routings could bring rapid transit much closer to Danforth/McCowan than it is today. They already have to take a bus to the subway. I don't see how it would be any different today. Brimley and Ellesmere would be served much better by a subway than it is by the RT. Are you perhaps thinking of different intersections?

And then there's the lost stations. Oh, the tragedy of losing two of the most underused stations on the TTC system. The deserted Ellesmere stationd doesn't even connect with the York Mills bus, while Midland is in the middle of a low-density industrial park. Its few riders come from Midland bus transfers, and what little ridership it does have would be eviscerated if Sheppard were ever completed. As I said, not a single user of those stops was moved to come out to a public meeting and ask for their station to be saved.


The decision to extend the BD line would surely have driven calls to finish the Sheppard subway, adding further cost and complications and possibly risking the entire Transit City concept. We have to appreciate the fact that the TTC is doing its best to improve service throughout the 416. Hopefully, we'll see a BD line to STC within the next 25-35 years.

The only risk to the Transit City concept would be a change to using the right mode for the job, rather than using LRT for everything. Absolutely Sheppard should be finished, and to STC, not out to farmer's fields and forests at Twyn Rivers.

In my opinion, here's a much more sensible transit plan for north and central Scarborough, at a comparable cost to the RT extension/Transit City plan:

  • Eliminating the preposterous "Scarborough LRT" north of Kingston and Eglinton, where it would pass mostly empty fields, forests, and the backyards of suburban two-car-garage houses
  • Eliminating the Sheppard streetcar out to the woods at Twyn Rivers
  • Replacing the RT with a subway to STC, elevated where possible, possibly routed east to McCowan and north, serving several densely-populated neighbourhoods
  • Finishing Sheppard to STC as originally intended, using a tunnelled ROW to Kennedy, then an elevated alignment above the creek, and finally re-using the existing RT alignment into Scarborough Centre, at a vastly lower cost than tunnelling the whole way
  • An LRT line east on Ellesmere from STC to the hospital and UTSC
  • An LRT line north on McCowan from STC to Alton Towers and up to Markville Mall and the GO station in Markham, with a second branch to Malvern via Finch
 
In every other city on earth, it doesn't take a decade and a half to build a subway line.
No, most take longer. In New York, the new subway line they are building there won't open until 2017, and construction started back in 1972, with planning since 1929. That's 88 years - 45 year since significant construction started.

In London the Jubilee line was finally finished 1999. Planning for that extension began in the mid-1970s. The previous section opened in 1979 after being planned since the 1960s. The next planned line is the Chelsea-Hackney line, for which planning started in 1901; although they've only been working on it seriously now since 1989. Opening isn't expected until sometime after 2020 - over 120 years in the making. Meanwhile they are building Crossrail, for which planning started in 1974, with opening scheduled for 2017. 33 years in the making, if it doesn't slip more.

Even in Montreal, the recent 3-station extension or the orange line was promised by the winning party in 3 elections in a row before construction finally began. Recently the city has confirmed plans to extend Line 2 and Line 5 in the next decade, even though these extensions have been shown on various metro maps since the mid-1970s. So that's about 40 years.

A decade and a half sounds pretty good to me.
 
No, most take longer. In New York, the new subway line they are building there won't open until 2017, and construction started back in 1972, with planning since 1929. That's 88 years - 45 year since significant construction started.

In London the Jubilee line was finally finished 1999. Planning for that extension began in the mid-1970s. The previous section opened in 1979 after being planned since the 1960s. The next planned line is the Chelsea-Hackney line, for which planning started in 1901; although they've only been working on it seriously now since 1989. Opening isn't expected until sometime after 2020 - over 120 years in the making. Meanwhile they are building Crossrail, for which planning started in 1974, with opening scheduled for 2017. 33 years in the making, if it doesn't slip more.

Even in Montreal, the recent 3-station extension or the orange line was promised by the winning party in 3 elections in a row before construction finally began. Recently the city has confirmed plans to extend Line 2 and Line 5 in the next decade, even though these extensions have been shown on various metro maps since the mid-1970s. So that's about 40 years.

A decade and a half sounds pretty good to me.

Uh, nfitz, once again your eagerness to disagree betrays a misundestanding of the situation. First of all, you choose the most infamously extreme examples in history. What about the vast numbers of lines built in a handful of years across Asia and Europe? Not to mention our very own BD and Yonge lines, both built in five years. Of course, you yourself betray the error in your logic: "Promised by the winning party in 3 elections in a row before construction finally began." Delays in decision making have absolutely nothing to do with design and construction time. That's what was causing the delays in all of the examples you've mentioned. That, and the fact that all are vastly more complex projects than a 2 stop, partly-elevated extension through a suburban neighbourhood.

You bring up the Laval extension, which is yet another good example of inflated TTC costs. It cost $745 million, even after cost overruns, for a line with three stations and a major river crossing. There is no reason why a Toronto extension should cost $1.2 billion for a comparable length with only two tunnels and no complex terrain.
 
By the TTC's own figures, as you've shown, the cost of finishing the BD is roughly comparable to refurbishing the RT and extending it up to Malvern. All that's leaving aside the fact that it costs the TTC as much to build 5km of subway with two stops as it costs Vancouver to build over 18km of RT with 16 stops, mostly underground. I'm sure with serious examination of elevated/surface options, the TTC could shave the subway extension cost under $1 billion. But I digress.

Again, by the TTC's own numbers, less than a quarter of riders on the RT are actually going to Malvern. That means that this $1.2 billion expenditure will do absolutely nothing to improve transit to over three quarters of transit riders in north and central Scarborough. Nothing for Milliken. Nothing for Alton Towers. Nothing for Woburn. Nothing for UTSC. Worst of all, it does nothing for Scarborough Centre. By contrast, an identical expenditure to extend the subway will significantly improve service for well over 95% of riders (excluding those in the immediate vicinity of Ellesmere station, the least busy on the entire TTC network). Everybody in Scarborough will enjoy the elimination of the unnecessary and inconvenient Kennedy transfer, and will shave 10 minutes (or more during one of the RT's routine outages) off every single trip. Recall that the RT is also thoroughly overcrowded, so much so that the TTC is obliged to provide parallel express buses to relieve the pressure. These new RT cars will offer only a marginal capacity improvement at great cost. No doubt they'll also be overcrowded in a few years.

I have spoken to several senior planners from the Scarborough district, and all are completely baffled by the TTC's plans. They can't understand why Scarborough Centre is being relentlessly bypassed, despite being the major designated growth centre in the official plan, by far the biggest destination, and the hub of most buses in Scarboough.

As for Malvern, a major and instant improvement could be provided though the introduction of a Neilson express bus. If Malvern needs a billion dollar RT and two billion dollar streetcars, surely it merits an express bus! The current Neilson route takes half an hour to wind its way down Ellesmere and though the hospital. If it used a shoulder bus lane on the 401 (similar to the arrangement on the 403) from McCowan to Neilson, it could potentially provide quick service from Malvern to major destinations like Scarborough Centre and downtown. All this at a cost measured in the thousands, not billions.



In every other city on earth, it doesn't take a decade and a half to build a subway line.



A parallel subway would also provide the immense benefit of keeping the RT open thoughout the construction period. The refurbishment will require closure for up to a year (or much more if the TTC's as good at keeping to timelines as it was on St. Clair), which would push many riders to other modes. It might not be easy to attract them back with no improvement to their service other than slightly bigger and newer cars at the end of it all.



Countless public meetings were held a few years ago on the subject of replacing the RT, and the overwhelming majority of Scarborough residents demanded a subway. I attended all of those meetings and I didn't hear a single person voice the complaint you're suggesting (though one did express concern about the pernicious effects of electromagnetic radiation, and there was the obligatory monorail proposal).

Potential subway routings could bring rapid transit much closer to Danforth/McCowan than it is today. They already have to take a bus to the subway. I don't see how it would be any different today. Brimley and Ellesmere would be served much better by a subway than it is by the RT. Are you perhaps thinking of different intersections?

And then there's the lost stations. Oh, the tragedy of losing two of the most underused stations on the TTC system. The deserted Ellesmere stationd doesn't even connect with the York Mills bus, while Midland is in the middle of a low-density industrial park. Its few riders come from Midland bus transfers, and what little ridership it does have would be eviscerated if Sheppard were ever completed. As I said, not a single user of those stops was moved to come out to a public meeting and ask for their station to be saved.




The only risk to the Transit City concept would be a change to using the right mode for the job, rather than using LRT for everything. Absolutely Sheppard should be finished, and to STC, not out to farmer's fields and forests at Twyn Rivers.

In my opinion, here's a much more sensible transit plan for north and central Scarborough, at a comparable cost to the RT extension/Transit City plan:

  • Eliminating the preposterous "Scarborough LRT" north of Kingston and Eglinton, where it would pass mostly empty fields, forests, and the backyards of suburban two-car-garage houses
  • Eliminating the Sheppard streetcar out to the woods at Twyn Rivers
  • Replacing the RT with a subway to STC, elevated where possible, possibly routed east to McCowan and north, serving several densely-populated neighbourhoods
  • Finishing Sheppard to STC as originally intended, using a tunnelled ROW to Kennedy, then an elevated alignment above the creek, and finally re-using the existing RT alignment into Scarborough Centre, at a vastly lower cost than tunnelling the whole way
  • An LRT line east on Ellesmere from STC to the hospital and UTSC
  • An LRT line north on McCowan from STC to Alton Towers and up to Markville Mall and the GO station in Markham, with a second branch to Malvern via Finch

I agree with everything you said unimaginative. I think keeping the RT is a worse mistake than choosing LRT for Eglinton.

I think I'll take into consideration your suggestions for the Scarborough LRT on my fantasy map (hate calling it that because I don't consider it a fantasy, I consider it doable and needed).
 
Rainforest

In my opinion, here's a much more sensible transit plan for north and central Scarborough, at a comparable cost to the RT extension/Transit City plan:

  • Eliminating the preposterous "Scarborough LRT" north of Kingston and Eglinton, where it would pass mostly empty fields, forests, and the backyards of suburban two-car-garage houses
  • Eliminating the Sheppard streetcar out to the woods at Twyn Rivers
  • Replacing the RT with a subway to STC, elevated where possible, possibly routed east to McCowan and north, serving several densely-populated neighbourhoods
  • Finishing Sheppard to STC as originally intended, using a tunnelled ROW to Kennedy, then an elevated alignment above the creek, and finally re-using the existing RT alignment into Scarborough Centre, at a vastly lower cost than tunnelling the whole way
  • An LRT line east on Ellesmere from STC to the hospital and UTSC
  • An LRT line north on McCowan from STC to Alton Towers and up to Markville Mall and the GO station in Markham, with a second branch to Malvern via Finch

Good plan overall, but I'd consider a few amendments:

1) Ending both the Danforth and Sheppard subways at STC is convenient for route planning (every suitable Scarborough route operates of that mega-terminus), but will create exceptional crowding at STC. Rather, I'd end Sheppard subway at Kennedy / Agincourt, creating a new subway, bus, LRT, and hopefully GO REX terminal there. That would save about 500m compared to Sheppard subway to STC.

2) Not sure about LRT along Ellesmere to UTSC: this is a short route that runs partly through greenspace and ravines, and has little development potential. Frequent mixed-traffic bus service, Ellesmere east end - UTSC - Hospital - STC - Agincourt subway should be sufficient.

3) Would consider LRT on Sheppard east of Kennedy: not to Twyn Rivers, but rather to Markham Rd, turning south, running to Kingston / Eglinton, and ending at Danforth subway.

So, we get:

Danforth subway to STC and Sheppard subway to Agincourt.

Four LRT lines: Danforth subway - Eglinton - Kingston - UTSC; "arc" Danforth subway - Eglinton - Markham Rd - Sheppard - Agincourt subway; STC - Malvern (branch to Centennial); and STC - McGowan North.

Finch, Sheppard, and Ellesmere buses operating off Agincourt subway terminal; most of N-S buses operating off STC or other stations on Danforth subway extension.
 
Good plan overall, but I'd consider a few amendments:

1) Ending both the Danforth and Sheppard subways at STC is convenient for route planning (every suitable Scarborough route operates of that mega-terminus), but will create exceptional crowding at STC. Rather, I'd end Sheppard subway at Kennedy / Agincourt, creating a new subway, bus, LRT, and hopefully GO REX terminal there. That would save about 500m compared to Sheppard subway to STC.

I don't know Scarborough that well, but I think having one major hub makes sense. It just makes sense for me to end both subway lines at STC and not go any further east with HRT. Similarly I would say no HRT is needed beyond MCC.
 
Just a reminder I support converting the SRT extension to LRT the extension of the BD line and completion of the Sheppard subway.

I am raising these points to try and understand the city/TTC thought process and planning points.

And I really hope you guys are emailing your objections to the TTC.
 
Good plan overall, but I'd consider a few amendments:

1) Ending both the Danforth and Sheppard subways at STC is convenient for route planning (every suitable Scarborough route operates of that mega-terminus), but will create exceptional crowding at STC. Rather, I'd end Sheppard subway at Kennedy / Agincourt, creating a new subway, bus, LRT, and hopefully GO REX terminal there. That would save about 500m compared to Sheppard subway to STC.

Crowding at STC is a reasonable concern, but the station's never going to be as busy as Bloor/Yonge. Likewise, the bus terminal, though it will require some expansion, won't be any busier than Finch is today. The problem with the idea of cutting Sheppard short is that it will still necessitate a transfer for riders from STC to NYC, Toronto's major suburban growth centres. Moreover, it would produce massive overcrowding on the bus connections from STC to the Kennedy/Agincourt terminal. There's just no reason why you wouldn't just finish the line, especially when the final segment has an available surface corridor along the creek and existing RT route.

2) Not sure about LRT along Ellesmere to UTSC: this is a short route that runs partly through greenspace and ravines, and has little development potential. Frequent mixed-traffic bus service, Ellesmere east end - UTSC - Hospital - STC - Agincourt subway should be sufficient.

That's a valid point, though the corridor sees three full-service bus routes and is one of the most frequently-served surface routes in the city. Your point further reinforces the absurdity of the much longer and more expensive Morningside route, which runs almost entirely through greenspace and ravines and replaces a far less busy bus corridor. An Ellesmere LRT is an option that would need more study.

3) Would consider LRT on Sheppard east of Kennedy: not to Twyn Rivers, but rather to Markham Rd, turning south, running to Kingston / Eglinton, and ending at Danforth subway.

The problem here is that the route is very long, impacting on its reliability. It would also force Markham Road riders from north of Sheppard to make an extra transfer. The overwhelming majority of people at, say, Markham and Ellesmere would simply travel 5 minutes to the extended subway at STC, rather than 25 minutes or more down to Kennedy on the LRT.
 
{Ellesmere service} ... though the corridor sees three full-service bus routes and is one of the most frequently-served surface routes in the city. Your point further reinforces the absurdity of the much longer and more expensive Morningside route, which runs almost entirely through greenspace and ravines and replaces a far less busy bus corridor. An Ellesmere LRT is an option that would need more study.

The three Ellesmere buses take different routes (Neilson, Ellesmere to the end, and Military Trail). Unless the LRT is branched, it wouldn't replace all of them.

The "Morningside" route should really be called "Eglinton - Kingston", that part isn't controversial. The UTSC to Kennedy using that route wouldn't be bad at all: about 8 km, 20 min at 22 km/h. The alternative route would be 10 min to STC plus about 7 min on subway to Kennedy. The saving is pretty small and the number of transfers is same (1).

The "absurdity" applies to the nothern part, where the line is scheduled to run through empty fields and then tilt back west. The trip from Malvern Town Centre to Kennedy via Morningside will take 10 or 15 min more than the trip via STC.
 

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