[Mystery White Boy]

You need to get out more. Your generalizations indicate a sheltered view (which is fed by politicians and mass media every day).

I have met many people from the Middle East who have the same values and regard for human life as we do.

Where's your mention of all if the Christian anti-abortionists who advocate murdering doctors who perform abortions, or women who have them?

They're obviously not true Christians. And this man obviously wasn't truly religious either. Some people just push their views while saying that they're religious when in fact they aren't. So many people say they're Christians or Jews, etc. because that is the faith they're family name was founded upon. For instance, do you really think that Bill Maher is a practising Jew? Not a chance.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

They're obviously not true Christians. And this man obviously wasn't truly religious either. Some people just push their views while saying that they're religious when in fact they aren't. So many people say they're Christians or Jews, etc. because that is the faith they're family name was founded upon. For instance, do you really think that Bill Maher is a practising Jew? Not a chance.

bill maher is actually a former roman catholic who is now an atheist, in regards to religion and an agnostic in regards to the question "is there a god".

 

[poppajojo]

Teen's slaying sparks 'honour killing' debate
December 14, 2007
Jim Wilkes
Isabel Teotonio

Slain schoolgirl Aqsa Parvez will be buried tomorrow after a funeral service expected to draw more than 1,000 family members, friends and others touched by her death.

The 16-year-old Mississauga girl died Monday after she was strangled in her Longhorn Trail home after quarrelling with family for months over her desire to shed the hijab, the traditional Muslim headscarf. Her father faces a murder charge. An older brother, accused of obstructing the police investigation, faces a bail hearing in Brampton today.

The teen's death has struck a chord with many. It has garnered international headlines, sparked editorials and ignited a firestorm of debate, particularly in cyberspace where Parvez's death has become a springboard for wider discussions on issues such as the hijab, Islam, "honour killings" and misogyny.

On Facebook, at least 11 groups have surfaced in response, with more than 5,000 members, some ranting, some pontificating and others spewing racial epithets.

On YouTube, at least 11 videos, viewed in total more than 16,000 times, have been posted. One website, somalinet.com, published a story on Parvez's death and included a poll about whether the father was justified in the alleged killing. As of last night, five of the 19 who responded agreed.

At the Islamic Centre of Canada mosque yesterday, Muslim leaders defended their faith and said acts of violence are not advocated by Islam or the scriptures of the Qur'an.

Dr. Iqbal Nadvi, spiritual leader of Oakville's Al-Falah Islamic Centre mosque, said parents fail and bring shame upon themselves if a child chooses to abandon holy writings and not wear the hijab.

"It is their duty to convince their kids that this part of their culture," he said. However, he said Muslims "categorically" denounce acts of murder. "This is not allowed in Islam, totally."

Shaila Kibria, who works on human rights issues within the local Muslim community, believes Parvez's reported refusal to wear a hijab, which some regard as symbolic of Islamic oppression toward women, has been key.

"It's so controversial because there are so many interpretations about whether the hijab is a requirement in Islam," said the 32-year-old who chooses to wear the hijab. "But the hijab and religion are not the real issues. What this poor girl went through, which is domestic violence and violence against women, isn't being recognized; what's being recognized is the hijab."

If the discussion remains centred on the issue of the hijab, Kibria said she fears Muslim men won't take responsibility for the "extremist religious patriarchy" that exists within their community.

It was the issue of the hijab that made the story so compelling, said Pierre Taillefer of Agence France-Presse, noting a law in France that forbids the veil in public schools. Funeral service begins at 1:30 p.m. tomorrow at the Islamic Centre of Canada mosque in Mississauga.

 

[BuildTO]

They're obviously not true Christians.

So you say. And yet, they often profess to act in the name of God.

And this man obviously wasn't truly religious either. Some people just push their views while saying that they're religious when in fact they aren't. So many people say they're Christians or Jews, etc. because that is the faith they're family name was founded upon.

Bingo - I think you may be getting it. So we need to focus here on the simple fact that a man murdered his daughter - instead of making ridiculous generalizations about other cultures, races, and religions.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

we need to focus here on the simple fact that a man murdered his daughter - instead of making ridiculous generalizations about other cultures, races, and religions.

please don't put race in the same category as religion or culture. people can't choose their race. someone who is critical of religion is not like someone who is racist. there is reason to be critical of religion, it's called historical evidence & dogmatic scriptures that advocate and justify some pretty horrible things.

 

[vicente]

Don't you know?

Muslim is a BROWN religion

Criticizing Islam is being racist against brown people like Indians and Arabs.

(this was sarcastic, for the sarcastically-challenged)

 

[Admiral Beez]

I meant 'church' not Church Street.

We take everyone, even plebs like me.

 

[Tewder]

Bingo - I think you may be getting it. So we need to focus here on the simple fact that a man murdered his daughter - instead of making ridiculous generalizations about other cultures, races, and religions.

I disagree. As a Canadian I think it is important for us to be mindful of the cultural backgrounds of people who are coming here. It is up to us to set the standard and send the message clearly of what it is we consider to be acceptable or not. And regardless of the specifics of Aqsa's death, it is important as a society that we take this opportunity to declare loudly and collectively that individual rights in Canada trump religious ones, and that no one will be forced to follow any religious or cultural practices against their will....end of story!

As a proud and practicing atheist, I really don't have an issue with what people choose to believe spiritually(I emphasize 'choose'), and this choice is their right. My concern is with the cultural practices that surround spirituality that are brought to Canada from homelands that do not have traditions of or a basic respect for democracy, civil rights, equality and so on. Lets face it these things have only recently been hard won in the west, historically speaking, and are still quite fragile, even within the west. As such, I question how it can possibly be reasonable to not raise issues of equal rights, misogyny, and religious cultural practice when a death over a hijab occurs in Mississauga? I also question how we cannot acknowledge that for every Aqsa we know of there are many more living in fear and under suppression that we don't know of? Does this happen in other cultures? Yes. Does this happen among other races? Yes. Which is all the more reason why Canada must work to assimilate its newcomers to its values. Some here will say that this is intolerant and that Canada does not have any values to espouse. To them I would suggest a little voyage around the world, to the very homelands of Canada's multicultural mosaic to learn that what has evolved here over several hundred years is very much worth sharing, but preserving too, and a commitment to these values must be understood as a condition for entry to this country.

Finally, this is not an attack on Islam. I understand that spiritual teachings very rarely condone violence and murder etc., and that these things get perverted through interpretation and cultural practice. It is a shame, however, that any open social dialogue on what is acceptable behaviour and practice in Canada must ultimately be shut down for fear of offense. Lets offend, I say! If our intentions are honest and good then people will ultimately benefit from the truth. There are some notable Canadian and American muslim women speaking out against cultural practices condoned in the name of Islam, among them Irshad Manji in Toronto and Wafa Sultan and Nonie Darwish in the USA, among others. These voices need to be heard, they are the voices of how religion must evolve to continue to be relevant here, which is to say that Religion needs to be freed from the control of patriarchy and homophobia. This is the only way that it can be compatible with a modern, pluralist, free and democratic society.

 

[BuildTO]

please don't put race in the same category as religion or culture. people can't choose their race. someone who is critical of religion is not like someone who is racist. there is reason to be critical of religion, it's called historical evidence & dogmatic scriptures that advocate and justify some pretty horrible things.

I did hesitate before writing "cultures, races, and religions", but decided specifically to use that wording, because while there are important distinctions between the three, in the current atmosphere of Islamophobia, the three become one and the same. You and I may understand the difference, but the victims of stereotyping and discrimination are all Muslims, all people with brown skin, all arabs, everyone from the Middle East, and all people from countries like Iraq, Pakistan, etc. This type of misunderstanding/misconception/ignorance is evident in this very thread. That is why I chose that wording.

 

[BuildTO]

I disagree. As a Canadian I think it is important for us to be mindful of the cultural backgrounds of people who are coming here. It is up to us to set the standard and send the message clearly of what it is we consider to be acceptable or not.

The idea that some cultures would want to import a tradition of murder is simply false, and Muslims the world over are trying to make this clear. The idea that we have to protest this crime as "unacceptable" is ludicrous. This man committed murder. I don't see anyone defending him.

it is important as a society that we take this opportunity to declare loudly and collectively that individual rights in Canada trump religious ones, and that no one will be forced to follow any religious or cultural practices against their will....end of story!

Nice in theory, but impossible in practice. It would involve getting into people's homes and interfering with the way they raise their children. What right do we have?

My concern is with the cultural practices that surround spirituality that are brought to Canada from homelands that do not have traditions of or a basic respect for democracy, civil rights, equality and so on.

It's a bit arrogant and often mistaken to think that we're the champions of democracy and civil rights. I say this especially because we've seen so many violations of civil rights here recently, but also, all of the Muslim immigrants I have met have a perfect understanding of these things.

Lets face it these things have only recently been hard won in the west, historically speaking, and are still quite fragile, even within the west. As such, I question how it can possibly be reasonable to not raise issues of equal rights, misogyny, and religious cultural practice when a death over a hijab occurs in Mississauga? I also question how we cannot acknowledge that for every Aqsa we know of there are many more living in fear and under suppression that we don't know of? Does this happen in other cultures? Yes. Does this happen among other races? Yes. Which is all the more reason why Canada must work to assimilate its newcomers to its values. Some here will say that this is intolerant and that Canada does not have any values to espouse. To them I would suggest a little voyage around the world, to the very homelands of Canada's multicultural mosaic to learn that what has evolved here over several hundred years is very much worth sharing, but preserving too, and a commitment to these values must be understood as a condition for entry to this country.

Your ideals are admirable, but I would argue that Canada has become a place where we need to strive for harmony in diversity. This means not assuming that our values are the same, but that our differing values come out of many diverse (and sometimes incompatible) ideals. Canada has never been a place where people immigrate to assimilate into a mold that makes us all the same.

Finally, this is not an attack on Islam. I understand that spiritual teachings very rarely condone violence and murder etc., and that these things get perverted through interpretation and cultural practice. It is a shame, however, that any open social dialogue on what is acceptable behaviour and practice in Canada must ultimately be shut down for fear of offense. Lets offend, I say!

This whole discussion has nothing to do with political correctness. It is about avoiding falling into the trap of stereotyping - and there are examples of that in this very thread. It is indeed an attack on Islam (not by you, I understand), as the debate in the mass media quickly turns to discussion of banning the hijab, when instead we should be focusing on domestic violence.

If our intentions are honest and good then people will ultimately benefit from the truth. There are some notable Canadian and American muslim women speaking out against cultural practices condoned in the name of Islam, among them Irshad Manji in Toronto and Wafa Sultan and Nonie Darwish in the USA, among others. These voices need to be heard, they are the voices of how religion must evolve to continue to be relevant here, which is to say that Religion needs to be freed from the control of patriarchy and homophobia. This is the only way that it can be compatible with a modern, pluralist, free and democratic society.

This again assumes that Aqsa's murder was based on religion, an idea that the vast majority of Muslims deny. All religions, as practised by people I know, are indeed compatible with a "modern, pluralist, free and democratic society".

Be wary of media personalities such as Irshad Manji, who is an apologist for the Muslim community. Every community has someone like this, who gains popularity by saying the things that those outside the community want to hear. I do not know any Muslims who respect her views.

 

[BuildTO]

A bit long, but worth the read if you've been following this issue. The following was written by a friend of mine. He welcomes comments; if you would like to contact him, please let me know.


THE DEATH OF AQSA PERVEZ: A reflection

Nauman Mir

16 December 2007

"When the young girl who was buried alive is asked: For what crime was she killed?" (Qur’an 81: 8-9)


A young Mississauga teenager, Aqsa Pervez, was killed by her father last week who later called the police and confessed. Mohammad Pervez is now in police custody and his case hearings have begun. The motive behind the murder is still unclear though most media reports have linked Ms. Pervez’s refusal to wear the hijab as the issue that led to her murder.

It is highly unlikely that the hijab was the only issue though the media attention that the hijab has received in this murder case is not surprising. The friend and her family with whom Aqsa stayed the week before her death has indicated that hijab was not a main factor in the dispute between Aqsa and her father. There are several issues that have been raised in the media by this whole affair and it is important to discuss these at some length.

1. Was it an honour killing? If so, is it religiously sanctioned?
2. What should be done if the hijab is forced upon a girl or woman?
3. Is this a particularly Muslim issue?
4. What is to be done?

I would like to state that I am not a religious or legal authority on any issue. What I am about to say in the following passages is strictly my personal opinion.

1. Honour Killing

Killing girls and women to preserve the family honour has unfortunately been a poisonous tradition that still exists in parts of some Muslim countries. Women are killed for behaviour or actions which are seen as causing loss of face. Some have said that the murder of Ms. Pervez was Canada’s first honour killing hinting that perhaps there will be more. Is it so? In my opinion, no and such crimes are neither the norm in Muslim countries nor will they be here in Canada. Ms. Pervez’s family is of Pakistani background. In rural parts of Pakistan where honour killings do happen, the acts sadly have some unofficial social acceptance that allows people to consider them different from a murder. Most Pakistanis consider such acts as heinous crimes as do Pakistani-Canadians. So the fear that some try to dispel that Muslims will commit honour killings everywhere in Canada is baseless and absolute non-sense. And that is made clear by the reaction that the Pakistani and Muslim community in Toronto has displayed in response to this murder; one of utter disgust and condemnation of the act.

As for religious sanction of honour killings; Islam does not allow the killing of any person (Muslim or non-Muslim). An oft-repeated verse of the Qur’an sums up Islam’s position: “if anyone kills a person…it shall be as if he killed the entire humanity†(5:32). As stated earlier, the practice of honour killings exists in some parts of the Muslim world but there are many people in those countries who are trying to stop such a horrendous practice clearly because they consider it morally wrong and a disgrace upon the name of Islam.

2. Hijab

The second question has led some like Canadian columnist Barbara Kay (of the right-wing rag National Post) to suggest that the hijab should have been banned here in Canada like it was in France. She even says that it might have prevented Aqsa's death and thinks it is apt-time to ban it now so that such crimes do not happen again. Thankfully, this perverted line of thinking is not widespread in Toronto or the rest of Canada.

The orientalist ignited fascination with this Muslim garment does not seem to end as the centuries go by. Rather as humanity progresses further into modernity, the fascination with the hijab keeps increasing, especially in the West.

It is a symbol of respect, faith, and honour for some and a symbol of oppression, tradition, and patriarchy for others. Some Muslim girls and women choose to wear it or not, others are forced to wear it implicitly by the weight of tradition or explicitly by family members. Those who are more traditional seem to think it mandatory while others consider it a matter of choice. In such a situation, the position that Canada currently holds on the issue of hijab is the right one; to leave the choice to the individual. For any state to intervene and make it either mandatory to veil or unveil goes against fundamental rights of the individual. Those who propose banning the hijab seem to not notice that they are acting exactly in the way religious fundamentalists would act. Islamic fundamentalists want to force Muslim women to wear the hijab; “Freedom†fundamentalists (like Kay or the French government) want to force Muslim women to not wear the hijab. Both fundamentalists want to impose their choice upon Muslim women and are unwilling to give them any autonomy to exercise their free will. Both think that Muslim women obviously don’t know what is good for them and thus they have to be decided for.

I can almost hear your question reader; but what about those women who are forced to wear the hijab either implicitly or explicitly? Allowing a safe counselling environment where young Muslim girls can discuss such issues with their parents would be a good start. Even if that does not work, at least having programs where girls can discuss these issues individually with a counsellor or peer-group can help. To have school teachers better trained in providing help with such issues to students is also important. If someone is suffering silently from any issue at home, generally there are signs that he or she will display at school which teachers can notice if they look. Many will remain silent unless asked or until they know there is a person they can talk to who can guide them to make decisions on their own. To force women to either veil or unveil is not the solution.

3. A Muslim Issue?

Aqsa Pervez was a Muslim Pakistani-Canadian girl. But her killing by her father is not a Muslim or Pakistani issue only. It is clearly a case of domestic violence intertwined with inter-generational conflict. Both of these social problems are not particular to Muslims or Pakistanis. Domestic violence against girls and women is an issue that inflicts all communities that make up Canada and there should be zero-tolerance for it. We all have responsibility in relation to this issue. The Muslim and South-Asian community however does need to acknowledge more that this issue actually exists within our own families. There is considerable denial that is mainly due to the brushing aside of any problem that will make "us" look bad in front of "them". The first path to resolving any issue is accepting the fact that the issue exists and then finding solutions in a collective way.

The inter-generational conflict is also one that affects all parents and teenagers the world over. From the details that are emerging, it seems that like any teenager, Ms. Pervez wanted more independence in her life, she had wanted to move out of the family house and the week before her murder, had been staying at a friend’s house. She was not non-religious but wanted less restrictions in her lifestyle. The urgings of rebellion that she felt are those that every teenager goes through. She wore clothing like those of her friends at school in a desire to fit in, not because of her different cultural background but because all teenagers feel the need to fit in and be more like their friends. Being part of the group is an obsession that all of us have experienced to varying degrees in our youth. A big part of that rebellion is appearance. Teenagers want to dress in a way that is acceptably “cool†which translates as follows: wear the opposite of everything your parents like. Most girls of that age want to wear make-up, tighter clothes, etc., which most parents understandably disapprove of. In the case of immigrant children, the only difference is that such behaviour of teenagers is seen as loss of the culture of the mother country and that makes parents feel helpless and insecure.

Only time, understanding, and culturally sensitive support groups for both adults and teens can resolve such issues that affect all immigrants. Will both parties be happy with the resolution? Maybe or maybe not. But both the parent and the teenager can finally come to some understanding eventually. The extreme measures taken by Mohammad Pervez are clearly unacceptable for which he will be rightfully punished.

4. What is to be done?

Looking at photos of Aqsa Pervez that her friends have posted on Facebook groups in her memory, it seems she was a lively girl, loved by friends, and full of life. Sadly, a life cut short by the most dishonourable of acts. Whether her father is guilty and if so, what was his motive, still remains to be proven in court.

As Canadians, we have to accept this unfortunate incident as a reminder of the fact that domestic violence against girls and women takes many shapes. There should be no tolerance for it. More social and culturally sensitive youth programs that are well-funded need to be there and should be well publicized to help members of our communities whenever they need it.

As Muslims and Pakistani-Canadians, we have to openly accept that there is domestic violence in our community against girls and women and we cannot deny it. It obviously brings shame to the community as a whole when we lose a member like Aqsa Pervez so tragically. But this was not an "honour killing" and we should openly tell everyone so. As parents, we need to understand and acknowledge that though we face issues and problems in accommodating our values and beliefs in Canada, our children deserve even more understanding and support because they are caught between two distinct worlds; one inside the home and one outside. Neither is completely "perfect". But we shouldn’t make things more difficult for say a young daughter or sister who is already trying to fit in with her friends and is also trying to keep up with her parents' expectations. It is not a very comfortable or easy issue for her to deal with on a daily basis. If we imagine being in her place, we can better understand her point of view and thus know how to resolve problems when they arise.

One hopes for tragedies like that of Aqsa Pervez to never happen but when they do, they inevitably bring communities together and remind us of our weaknesses as a society. Let us reflect and learn so that such tragedies can be prevented in the future.

 

[urbandreamer]

Barbara Kay: would you please go to Milverton Ontario to see how the Amish and Old Order Mennonite men "force" their women to wear head coverings.

Barbara Kay: would you call for the banning of all religious "headgear" in Canada? Turbans, skull caps, black hats (both Hasidic and Amish), scarves (Christian Orthodox, Mormom, Hutterite, other), ...?

Barbara Kay: stop being a hypocrite!

Thanks,

the non-NP-reading hypocrite,

U_D.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Dentrobate, both of those fathers are obviously deranged, and it is absolutely wrong to try and justify that in terms of the pressure they face on their morals. This girl obviously didn't appreciate or agree with the father's "morals" and that should have led to an argument and maybe even ejection from the home, but certainly not murder. That is an act of a madman, no matter how frustrated he might have been at her decision to adopt Canadian/Western norms of behaviour.

Sorry but this is just too big an issue to simply summise as "Oh well, he was nuts, lets move on!". Much like Blacks before them, 'Brown' people as one of you so demeaningly referred Middle Easterners as are facing the brunt of a system obsessed with punishing thew enemy. It's systematic, latent and can arise out of the simplest of disputes. That Muslims faced by increased Islamophobia cling to their heritage as their only salvation/path out of hardships is no different than the Evangelical, Baptist, Jehovah Witness, Adventist indoctrination of blacks in the South. Religion to many is the solution to persecution, and the only thing one can fall back on if a minority's rejected by mainstream society.

Western norms of behaviour? What about everyone's an individual, yuk-yuk, whatnot? It seems the only thing normal about Western behaviour is absolute fear of outside influences. The highly conservative, unilateral representation of facts, viewpoints, pundents, commentators, celebrities, etc. is only indicative of how messed up a culture Canadiana's based on. We're Canadian because we're anti-American. We're Quebecois because we're anti-British. See? Our identity exists only as the antithesis of other cultural identies. Morality aside, we have no right to kill someone who disagrees with our views, but its equally offensive to insinuate every immigrant who comes here must relenquish their soul and being to fit in as clones. Clones of what exactly? To be continued...

Our House of Representatives? Perhaps you're looking at the wrong country. Are you sure that you're aware Urban Toronto is Toronto, Canada, not Toronto, Ohio?

I'll admit I'm glad the system at least trying to be more inclusive of women and visible minorities but statistically the number of representatives from either group has declined since the last election.

 

[BobBob]

^ I think he meant to point out to you that there's no House of Representatives in Canada.

 

[MisterF]

They're obviously not true Christians. And this man obviously wasn't truly religious either. Some people just push their views while saying that they're religious when in fact they aren't. So many people say they're Christians or Jews, etc. because that is the faith they're family name was founded upon. For instance, do you really think that Bill Maher is a practising Jew? Not a chance.

Who decides who's a "true Christian" or "truly religious"? Someone who kills his daughter in the name of religion is just doing what the Bible or Quran or whatever other religious text says to do. The number of crimes in those books where the punishment is death is astounding. Those parts of the Bible are the ones that most modern Christians don't follow. I don't think a moderate Christian or Muslim is any more or less religious than a hardliner.