[EnviroTO]

Either the ridership projection numbers are flawed and cannot be used to properly determine what mode of services make sense, or they are accurate and can be used to properly determine what mode is used. There is a logical disconnect to assume the numbers are correct and say a route should be BRT while dismissing the numbers and saying another route should be subway. My point is that people need to decide to either dismiss the numbers completely because the methodology used to create them is flawed or accept them... otherwise any of their arguments mentioning the numbers hold no weight.

 

[EnviroTO]

Keep in mind that the TTC only studied the route between Morningside to Don Mills...

They neglected **on purpose** to study STC to Don Mills.
The 2001 RTES report stated ridership at 8400 pph...

People need a fast link between STC and Sheppard-Yonge and Downsview.

I think the need is overstated. The 190 Scarborough Centre Rocket would be more substantially utilized if there was a large demand between those two points. Less than a quarter of the people boarding Sheppard East or Rocket buses at Don Mills are bound for SCC.

 

[kettal]

I am still missing something....the shortest bus ride from BCC to Yonge/Sheppard that I see there is 50 minutes? I guess it is shorter (40 minutes) if your target is the Finch GO bus terminal and even shorter (30 minutes) if you are aiming at Yonge and Langstaff.....but, even if traffic does not delay these times, I still can't find that 20 minute bus ride to yonge?

EDIT: forgot to mention that if you flip the page on that link you will see a "frequency" of service which will give you a hint why I might have forgotten about this service anyway.

Look at the schedule closely my friend. Bramalea Station to Langstaff (future Yonge subway station) is 20 minutes.

The point remains, that a Brampton or Woodbridge fellow who want to get to Yonge (for whatever reason?) has no business using Finch or Finch Hydro corridor. Fresh Start was spewing his usual BS there. If they're going downtown (more likely scenario) they should be using the good old GO train.

 

[Fresh Start]

Look at the schedule closely my friend. Bramalea Station to Langstaff (future Yonge subway station) is 20 minutes.

The point remains, that a Brampton or Woodbridge fellow who want to get to Yonge (for whatever reason?) has no business using Finch or Finch Hydro corridor. Fresh Start was spewing his usual BS there. If they're going downtown (more likely scenario) they should be using the good old GO train.

The only BS spewer is you. BRT = $10 million/km, LRT = $40 million/km. Why are we throwing money down a pit? The ridership especially after the Finch West stop on the Spadina Line will never qualify the corridor (RATIONALLY) for railed transit, too much expenditure for too little passenger loads. If Finch proper's wide enough for LRT it can accomodate bus lanes. I was speaking specifically for airport users, Humber/Woodbine patrons and Rexdale residents desiring NYCC, although arguably, a sizable number of 905ers would have use for the Finch Line, particularly if it can be stretched across from Etobicoke into Scarborough (a plus for the F.H.C.). I have yet to witness GO Tranist services with all-day regular frequency, meaning that the Finch would be faster and more reliable in most cases.

But thanks anyway for insulting our intelligence, when obviously there will be customers that want onto the Jane LRT in a hurry, direct service to York U/Spadina Line in a hurry, to Bathurst... that your infrequent GO services all the way out of the way in Richmond Hill won't so readily provide. I must also applaud your lack of understanding in that separating long-haul interregional travellers from local transit service is also a good thing. And should HONE permit use of the F.H.C. for even part of the ROW, even better. It sustains the close stop spacings of the 36 (and 39) bus and prevents a busload trip from fulling up before it even leaves Etobicoke. That frees up space (capacity) for those stuck in the middle.

 

[Fresh Start]

Either the ridership projection numbers are flawed and cannot be used to properly determine what mode of services make sense, or they are accurate and can be used to properly determine what mode is used. There is a logical disconnect to assume the numbers are correct and say a route should be BRT while dismissing the numbers and saying another route should be subway. My point is that people need to decide to either dismiss the numbers completely because the methodology used to create them is flawed or accept them... otherwise any of their arguments mentioning the numbers hold no weight.

I prefer to look at what the numbers are today. That at least we know to a certain degree is factual. My point is this though. Anywhere else in the world with that cited pphpd figure would never jump the gun from local bus to light-rail trams. Resolving the congestion and long crosstown commutes along Finch could be resolved with far simpler (cheaper) means. How much does it cost the City to designate 2 driving lanes for buses only? To implement queue jumps? Not a lot.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The numbers for Finch are flawed...the numbers for other routes may not be flawed. Eglinton's numbers seem reasonable, for instance, at least in the sense that areas along the line wouldn't have to triple their transit usage for projections to be reached.

It doesn't matter what the projected ridership is, a ROW of some kind is needed on Finch West. Finch East sees and will see more riders, but a ROW is not needed there (some might consider it desirable, though). There's more to the choice then tweaking projections so that they fall into predetermined parameters. The reality is that BRT could work just fine on Finch West, but LRT could work fine, too. BRT can often be a waste of infrastructure dollars if it requires rebuilding entire roads and tunnelling stations and so on...might as well build an LRT line.

I think the need is overstated. The 190 Scarborough Centre Rocket would be more substantially utilized if there was a large demand between those two points. Less than a quarter of the people boarding Sheppard East or Rocket buses at Don Mills are bound for SCC.

Ignore people saying the link to STC is the only reason to extend Sheppard. What it's actually for is to serve everything in between Fairview and STC...naturally, there's more people that will cumulatively use every stop but the last than will use just the last stop.

The 190 has only existed for a few years and its ridership is already much higher than projected and continues to grow as people shift over from the 85, not just as more people use it to/from STC. But since transit use overall in the area is growing, and not just because of population growth, the 190 doesn't just cannibalize the 85.

 

[EnviroTO]

I prefer to look at what the numbers are today. That at least we know to a certain degree is factual.

OK. The numbers are Finch West 42,600 per day. Sheppard East 28,300 per day. Scarborough Rocket 8,200 per day. Scarborough RT 43,770. What do you read into this?

 

[taal]

OK. The numbers are Finch West 42,600 per day. Sheppard East 28,300 per day. Scarborough Rocket 8,200 per day. Scarborough RT 43,770. What do you read into this?

What % of these fall into the 'rush hour' crowd i.e. let's say 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours at night (7-9) - (4-6) ? 30% ? that would be 3000+ per hour in those 4 hours, these numbers are out of thin air but maybe 2000-3000 is not that unreasonable in peak.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

We also know that the Spadina extension will take enough riders away from the busiest stretch of Finch West that even after substantial ridership growth the peak crowds won't be any larger than they are today. The same cannot be said for other routes.

If someone's going to start listing random numbers without adding context, be aware that there's a few other bus routes that feed into Don Mills station, and there's quite a few people that are forced off the RT by crowding onto alternate routes or would be lured onto it by better service - everything from the Midland bus to the Nugget Express.

Food for thought: Finch West may move 42,600 people per day and the 190 Rocket may move 'only' 8,200, but Finch actually runs 20 buses per hour in the pm rush, compared to the 190's 11 per hour. 5 times as much total ridership, less than twice the service, though the 36 runs 22.5 buses per hour in the am peak. Long routes always have higher total ridership but their peak crowds aren't always that big. To the 190's 11 per am rush hour buses, add 15 for the 85...26 buses and we're still below Finch West's total ridership. Add 3 Huntingwood buses, 2.5 Pharmacy buses, 4 224s, 5 24As...we're over 40 buses per hour and almost twice the service and it still might be under Finch West's total daily ridership.

3000 per hour is unreasonable when you're currently dealing with 20 buses per hour...that's 150 people per bus. They get clogged enough to start negatively affecting service at, what, 60? Maybe 75 can fit if they're skinny and friendly?

 

[TOareaFan]

Look at the schedule closely my friend. Bramalea Station to Langstaff (future Yonge subway station) is 20 minutes.

The point remains, that a Brampton or Woodbridge fellow who want to get to Yonge (for whatever reason?) has no business using Finch or Finch Hydro corridor. Fresh Start was spewing his usual BS there. If they're going downtown (more likely scenario) they should be using the good old GO train.

I agree with your last point...the GO is (and always should be) the most preferred route downtown....what links to the subway provide (in my opinion) is off peak service so that we don't need to run huge GO trains to serve the few people coming home or going to the city at 11 o'clock on a Tuesday night.

I guess that is why I was reading the schedule and assuming that the bus trip we were debating over started at Bramalea City Centre and not Bramalea GO Station......presumably a more extensive GO service will be place long before the Yonge Subway is at Langstaff....if you are standing at the GO station and going downtown....taking a bus to Yonge to then go downtown makes a lot less sense than taking a train to Union!

We were starting our trips in different places.

 

[taal]

We also know that the Spadina extension will take enough riders away from the busiest stretch of Finch West that even after substantial ridership growth the peak crowds won't be any larger than they are today. The same cannot be said for other routes.

If someone's going to start listing random numbers without adding context, be aware that there's a few other bus routes that feed into Don Mills station, and there's quite a few people that are forced off the RT by crowding onto alternate routes or would be lured onto it by better service - everything from the Midland bus to the Nugget Express.

Food for thought: Finch West may move 42,600 people per day and the 190 Rocket may move 'only' 8,200, but Finch actually runs 20 buses per hour in the pm rush, compared to the 190's 11 per hour. 5 times as much total ridership, less than twice the service, though the 36 runs 22.5 buses per hour in the am peak. Long routes always have higher total ridership but their peak crowds aren't always that big. To the 190's 11 per am rush hour buses, add 15 for the 85...26 buses and we're still below Finch West's total ridership. Add 3 Huntingwood buses, 2.5 Pharmacy buses, 4 224s, 5 24As...we're over 40 buses per hour and almost twice the service and it still might be under Finch West's total daily ridership.

3000 per hour is unreasonable when you're currently dealing with 20 buses per hour...that's 150 people per bus. They get clogged enough to start negatively affecting service at, what, 60? Maybe 75 can fit if they're skinny and friendly?

Sorry but which stretch along finch will the subway effect?

Regarding your other points - yea, that makes sense ... buses in peek vs the length of route or the total ridership (when comparing to other routes) makes the usage in peak more clear. I see your point that Sheppard will be higher even if the overall number is lower. That being said 2000-3000 still sounds reasonable for Finch ... less any ridership losses you can explain.

 

[Rainforest]

Brampton to Yonge

The point is that the 407 portion of the trip, Bramalea Stn to RHC, is only 20 min - this is almost 60 kph, and that includes getting onto / off 407.

Regarding the frequency - yes it is very low today, but don't forget the Transitway plans, it should dramatically improve the frequency.

F.H.C. BRT will never run at the average speed of 60 kph, while serving stops every 2 km - that would require top speed 90 or 100 kph. Plus, note that Brampton, Woodbridge, or Malton are not next to F.H.C.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Sorry but which stretch along finch will the subway effect?

Regarding your other points - yea, that makes sense ... buses in peek vs the length of route or the total ridership (when comparing to other routes) makes the usage in peak more clear. I see your point that Sheppard will be higher even if the overall number is lower. That being said 2000-3000 still sounds reasonable for Finch ... less any ridership losses you can explain.

Uh, west of Keele. The subway extension will take riders away from the busiest part of Finch West and move the same riders over to the less busy part. At first, peak loads will drop while total ridership remains the same. But the subway extension will then trigger some amount of ridership growth and the line will end up with higher total ridership then before but equal or even lower peak crowds.

Considering peak crowds will be about 1000 per hour on Finch West when the subway extension opens, 3000 is completely unrealistic as it would require ridership along Finch to triple. That's not going to happen. Even 2000 per hour would require an enormous and unlikely amount of ridership growth.

edit - Maybe it'd be different if they ran it all the way through Woodbine to the airport, and all the way east on Finch to the Zoo/Malvern...ridership certainly will not triple via population growth or getting drivers out of their cars.

 

[kettal]

I have yet to witness GO Tranist services with all-day regular frequency, meaning that the Finch would be faster and more reliable in most cases.

This is the worst strawman argument I've seen yet. So just because the bus is green and runs on 407 corridor, it must therefore be lower frequency than a red bus that runs on Finch corridor? Give me a break. The frequency will be adjusted to meet demand, regardless of the colour of the bus.

But thanks anyway for insulting our intelligence, when obviously there will be customers that want onto the Jane LRT in a hurry, direct service to York U/Spadina Line in a hurry, to Bathurst... that your infrequent GO services all the way out of the way in Richmond Hill won't so readily provide. I must also applaud your lack of understanding in that separating long-haul interregional travellers from local transit service is also a good thing. And should HONE permit use of the F.H.C. for even part of the ROW, even better. It sustains the close stop spacings of the 36 (and 39) bus and prevents a busload trip from fulling up before it even leaves Etobicoke. That frees up space (capacity) for those stuck in the middle.

I fully expect it will connect to the Spadina subway extension (you know, the one with a station called 407 Transitway Station... could that be a hint?) Will provide easy access to Jane Street as a result. And the frequency will go up to meet demand (which right now is very low).

Your BRT idea is a solution in desperate search of a problem.

 

[Fresh Start]

This is the worst strawman argument I've seen yet. So just because the bus is green and runs on 407 corridor, it must therefore be lower frequency than a red bus that runs on Finch corridor? Give me a break. The frequency will be adjusted to meet demand, regardless of the colour of the bus.

I fully expect it will connect to the Spadina subway extension (you know, the one with a station called 407 Transitway Station... could that be a hint?) Will provide easy access to Jane Street as a result. And the frequency will go up to meet demand (which right now is very low).

Your BRT idea is a solution in desperate search of a problem.

TTC + BT + GO = $10 (with GO POP), $10.60 (without) to $11.10 (paying TTC cash instead of token)
TTC + GO = $7.60 - $8.10
TTC + BT = $5.50 - $6 flat

Which would you rather? The TTC is adamant that it will not enter into a fare integration agreement with GO Transit because they are not getting the full value out of every Twin Pass (dual GO/TTC monthly pass-holding) customer. Breaking it down to a per ride fare schema would incur the TTC further lost revenue.

GO operates the service "frequently" only during rush hour, to do it outside peak hours would lose them money for only carrying a handful of pphpd. Things like fuel costs adds up when there's less occupants to pay for the trip. Notice people don't live beside highways, several occupied apartment buildings front the F.H.C. with multiple more within 3 mins walk of it. There's also 14 regularly scheduled intersecting routes in-between Humber College and Yonge St wherein commuters can interchange on and off at their leisure. The layover at 407 Transitway Stn, will also tack on roughly 5 minutes to any commute from exiting the 407, front-door only unloading and reloading wherein the driver must manually stop to check everyone's fare, reentering the 407 and exiting again at Yonge Street. At roughly two minutes interval for the subway, assuming one's lucky enough to catch of one the infrequently scheduled north-of-Finch inbound trips, it'd still take close to 10 minutes to backtrack from Langstaff Stn to Finch Stn. So suddenly your purported 20 minutes has realistically become 36 minutes, favorable conditions permitting.

F.H.C. meanwhile would travel relatively traffic free for about 10 kms from Yonge St to just east of Weston Road or 25 mins. The road-median section of the line through Etobicoke with similar stop spacings as FWLRT would be another 10 mins, matching the duration of the GO Transit trip but with less transfers and layovers and will end up costing less. Brampton's Zum BRT network will run along Steeles Avenue passing by the Bramalea GO Stn and terminating at Humber College. Assuming optimal conditions in reserved lanes, the 7km trip from Bramalea GO to Humber College would only take 12 mins and cost no more than the local bus taken to ride there. So 47 mins direct, with simple platform interchange at Humber. Not bad, in my book.

Under a fare by distance schema wherein the operation of trips are tied directly into peak demand times only, it is never advantageous for the casual public transit user to rely on premium vs. regular transit operations. Furthermore the BRT has and always will have far more mutability than LRT, because its alignments are not confined to where the tracks are laid. Beyond Humber College, BRT would have greater flexibility in branching services into Malton and down the 427 into Southern Etobicoke. Or up the 27 into Woodbridge (likewise it'd be possible for VIVA Orange buses to branch direct Vaughan-Humber College service). On the eastern end, lines can radiate down to Don Mills Stn easily, to Malvern Town Centre and into Beaver Creek/Markham without the long construction delays, superflurous aggrandizements and funding issues associated with railed transit. Does BRT cost $12 billion? No. Will it only benefit a few select corridors? No. Is it capable of making both crosstown and interregional travel both more affordable and more reliable for average transit users... with near identical cost, time, labour, social and environmental benefits as LRT? Yes. So sorry again, if you're still under the misconception that I only spew BS.