robmausser
Senior Member
I really dont think Finch should go East from where it is now. Extending the Sheppard subway west is a much better use of funds.
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I really dont think Finch should go East from where it is now. Extending the Sheppard subway west is a much better use of funds.
If we're talking about better use of funds, it'll be a lot cheaper (probably half the cost or less) to extend the Finch line on the surface until Yonge, than it would be to tunnel the Sheppard line until Sheppard West Station.
Also, more people on the Finch line would want to get to Finch station than folks on the Sheppard line want to get to Sheppard West station.
If we're talking about better use of funds, it'll be a lot cheaper (probably half the cost or less) to extend the Finch line on the surface until Yonge, than it would be to tunnel the Sheppard line until Sheppard West Station.
Also, more people on the Finch line would want to get to Finch station than folks on the Sheppard line want to get to Sheppard West station.
The primary case for Sheppard West is connecting Line 4 to Wilson Yard to provide easier, less time consuming deadhead movements and potentially avoid the cost of building a new yard for Sheppard East.
Serving passengers is more incidental to that since the tunnel would be there anyway; though the proposed build out at Downsview will create a very large residential and employment hub over time.
Finch has plenty of room through here, and decent ridership, and a Yonge extension will have a train yard built with it.Better use of funds does not mean cheaper, it means value for your money.
Not only is Finch particularly narrow through this section, but an at-grade LRT is not a good use of what essentially will be used as an express transfer between the two Line 1's.
I mean, the distance between Sheppard West station and Yonge-Sheppard station is 4 km. Half the distance of the planned Yonge North Subway extension and that one costs $5.6 billion. Meaning making this subway connection on Sheppard could cost up to $2.8 billion.
Compared with the Finch West LRT at 10km costing $1.2 billion. The 6 km link on Finch could cost up to a paltry $720 million/
The total cost savings for extending Finch vs extending Sheppard results in a savings of $2 billion.
I don't think anywhere in the world where deadhead movement of trains require a $2 billion overspend. Especially if demand on Finch would be much higher than Sheppard west.
We need to be building systems to cater passengers. Not incidentally serve passengers when there happens to be a tunnel in place.
Finch has plenty of room through here, and decent ridership, and a Yonge extension will have a train yard built with it.
Doesn't this just mean Sheppard East is an even more questionable investment?Does it? Do you need a yard for Sheppard East, yes or no? Because if you do, (and if that cost is avoided by the Wilson connection, the yard cost will be ~1B, plus any connecting tunnel. )
One would think that a billion dollars could change this fact. I know Toronto is famously unimaginative, but other cities have multi-level yards with development on top.The yard proposed for the Line 1 north extension will not have sufficient room for any Line 4 rolling stock.
Better use of funds does not mean cheaper, it means value for your money.
Not only is Finch particularly narrow through this section, but an at-grade LRT is not a good use of what essentially will be used as an express transfer between the two Line 1's.
Sure, though there are different components included, stations vs tunnels but I think you'd be in the ballpark.
Does it? Do you need a yard for Sheppard East, yes or no? Because if you do, (and if that cost is avoided by the Wilson connection, the yard cost will be ~1B, plus any connecting tunnel.
This statement does not make sense to me. As note above, if Sheppard requires either a new yard, or a yard connection, this is something that can't be provided by the Finch LRT.
Your statement only works if there is no Sheppard subway extension and no yard or yard connection required.
Sure; but if a yard for Sheppard East is required etc etc.
Again, the demand node at Downsview when build-out is completed is larger than the existing or projected demand on Finch West.
PS, In anticipation of a Sheppard West extension, land assemblies and planning for new density are underway.
The yard proposed for the Line 1 north extension will not have sufficient room for any Line 4 rolling stock.
Doesn't this just mean Sheppard East is an even more questionable investment?
One would think that a billion dollars could change this fact. I know Toronto is famously unimaginative, but other cities have multi-level yards with development on top.
The Sheppard East extension of Line 4 would mean they'll be running 6-car trainsets instead of 4-car trainsets of Toronto Rocket trains exactly the same as Line 1. Meaning they can be serviced at the new Yonge North yard or at the Wilson yard. Removing the requirement for the connection through Sheppard.
This is simply incorrect.
The Yonge North Yard is not proposed for heavy maintenance and not large enough to store Line 4's rollingstock.
I'm not sure why your trying to argue this with me. I have no vested interest against Finch West or in favour of Sheppard, I'm simply putting forward the facts. Those facts really aren't in dispute.
Either Line 4 goes west to Wilson or Sheppard East gets a new yard and connecting track, the end. That's it. There's no other choices. If you oppose any further extension of Sheppard, that's fine, but the current plans having it going ahead
and we need to factor that in to how money is invested.
Which part is incorrect. I stated like 3 different things in that sentence.
- The Sheppard East extension of Line 4 would mean they'll be running 6-car trainsets instead of 4-car trainsets of Toronto Rocket trains
- Exactly the same as Line 1.
- Meaning they can be serviced at the new Yonge North yard or at the Wilson yard. Removing the requirement for the connection through Sheppard.
Sure, but it'll still have space to store trains, otherwise, what's the point in building this yard? And what's stopping them from using the trains stored in this yard to go to Line 4 instead of Line 1? It's not like Line 4 has 25 trains running on it. Actually, right now it only has 6 trains total, if memory serves me right.
I mean you're arguing for a $2.8 billion dollar line just to link Line 4 to Wilson yard directly.
With no regard for what the demand is for this line or if the money would be better spent elsewhere.
Hypothetically, even if a new yard costs $1 billion (you provided this number) to be built somewhere on Sheppard East after it's extended, you're still saving $1.8 billion to be used elsewhere.
I don't have a vested interest against the Sheppard West extension to Wilson yard either. But I see you are arguing to build a $2.8 billion dollar line to save $1 billion on a new subway yard.