[lead82]

Many drivers were worried about losing through lanes, and while there will be delays during construction, no lanes will be lost to traffic. The only thing lost will be left turn restrictions to specific areas. I say it's a about time. Left turns cause a lot of delays and waste a lot of space on the road. The flow of traffic will go smoother if left turns are restricted to designated areas since it will mean less merging.

I'm hoping this line starts construction either late 2009 or 2010.

 

[ShonTron]

Looking down at the Highway 27 and Finch West, I can see that the LRT could go down the hydro right-of-way to reach Humber College Blvd. Highway 27 goes into a depression in the hill at the Humber College Blvd. intersection. The LRT could then use the William Osler (aka Etobicoke General) hospital parking lot to bridge over Highway 27 into the parking lot of Humber College.

Supposedly they can't do it, citing electro-magnetic interference between the LRT overhead wires and the high voltage lines. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm not sure if I can believe it.

 

[RedRocket191]

Supposedly they can't do it, citing electro-magnetic interference between the LRT overhead wires and the high voltage lines. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm not sure if I can believe it.

Not an electrical engineer either, but my uncle's new LCD TV's magnetic field was strong enough to overwhelm the rogers digital box when placed too close together. If interference at this level is possible, then I think it could happen.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Supposedly they can't do it, citing electro-magnetic interference between the LRT overhead wires and the high voltage lines. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm not sure if I can believe it.

the same thing was cited for Waterloo's Rapid Transit line... if it's LRT it can't the hydro corridor to Conestoga mall (not sure if it's all hydro corridor's or just this specific one)

 

[urbanfan89]

Supposedly they can't do it, citing electro-magnetic interference between the LRT overhead wires and the high voltage lines. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm not sure if I can believe it.

They could string up some wires above the LRT catanaries to provide a "ground" for the electromagnetic waves before they hit the train operations.

 

[nfitz]

Supposedly they can't do it, citing electro-magnetic interference between the LRT overhead wires and the high voltage lines. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I'm not sure if I can believe it.

Neither am I, but I can believe it. I spent a couple of summers doing surveying on construction sites. One of the rods I used to use was a 5-metre one made of aluminium (back then many were wood). One of the sites we were on had some new roads constructed underneath a high-voltage line (now I think about it, the very same line that the Waterloo LRT won't be following). Whenever I was under the line holding the pole towards it, you could feel the vibrations in the rod whenever you ran you hands along it. It was quite interesting to see. And it was a long, long way above me.

 

[rbt]

They could string up some wires above the LRT catanaries to provide a "ground" for the electromagnetic waves before they hit the train operations.

Disclaimer -- trained as an electrical engineer but I haven't practised in nearly 10 years.

If the concern is the wear on the rails (constant electrical flow through the rails to ground will eat away at the rails) then you need to sink the ground wires very deep or electrically isolate the rails or keeping them fully grounded (both are damn hard given the length of the system).

Second, Ontario Hydro might start billing you. A several km long Faraday cage will capture and sink enough energy from the transmission lines to make a noticeable difference (possibly 1% of total energy transmitted or thousands of dollars worth per day). Anything over 1km in length of rail or overhead wire will act as a 1/1 transformer capturing a nontrivial percentage of energy from the overhead -- even 1% of the energy could easily kill you.

Ideal would be a 1250 km long LRT line as then you could get a standing wave on the rails but much smaller values will capture some energy.

Repairs also become interesting. If the cage wires fell for some reason (cement truck snagged the wire while crossing the street) or repairs were being done then the rails would become "live" potentially creating a good shock to anyone who happens to be standing on one.

If it was a 500 meter or shorter jaunt there probably would not be any issues. If it was 100 meters to either side of the corridor it probably wouldn't be an issue either.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Disclaimer -- trained as an electrical engineer but I haven't practised in nearly 10 years.

If the concern is the wear on the rails (constant electrical flow through the rails to ground will eat away at the rails) then you need to sink the ground wires very deep or electrically isolate the rails or keeping them fully grounded (both are damn hard given the length of the system).

Second, Ontario Hydro might start billing you. A several km long Faraday cage will capture and sink enough energy from the transmission lines to make a noticeable difference (possibly 1% of total energy transmitted or thousands of dollars worth per day). Anything over 1km in length of rail or overhead wire will act as a 1/1 transformer capturing a nontrivial percentage of energy from the overhead -- even 1% of the energy could easily kill you.

Ideal would be a 1250 km long LRT line as then you could get a standing wave on the rails but much smaller values will capture some energy.

Repairs also become interesting. If the cage wires fell for some reason (cement truck snagged the wire while crossing the street) or repairs were being done then the rails would become "live" potentially creating a good shock to anyone who happens to be standing on one.

If it was a 500 meter or shorter jaunt there probably would not be any issues. If it was 100 meters to either side of the corridor it probably wouldn't be an issue either.

What about the underground high voltage lines near Sunnyside on the Lake Shore. Before the Gardiner Expressway, they were above ground, now they are buried.

 

[Just_Chris]

I think stations should be about 1km - 1.3km apart, which is, I believe, similar to the Yonge line north of St. Clair.

(1) distances between places way up there are much longer than they are downtown, Annex, Riverdale, or Little Italy. Slow-moving streetcars with closely spaced stops are alright downtown because the average trip is probably under 4 km. Up there though, it would just make trips take too long.

(2) having fewer stops would allow any "TOD" development next to the stations to be more concentrated around fewer stations. This would give a greater chance of true "urban nodes" developing than closely spaced stations.

(3) stations 1km apart would only ever add a few minute walking time than stations 500m apart. with an average walking speed of 5km/hr, 250m only takes about 5 minutes to walk.

 

[RedRocket191]

I think stations should be about 1km - 1.3km apart, which is, I believe, similar to the Yonge line north of St. Clair.

I respectfully disagree. The object of Transit City is to improve local service along the corridor. Moving to station spacing at this distance would require a bus route to overlap the LRT line, defeating the purpose of improving local service along the corridor.

1) These are not going to be slow moving streetcars. Preliminary analysis indicate that these vehicles will be traveling faster than the current bus route currently does, and much faster than any downtown streetcar line ever does.

2) If an urban node really does develop around stations, then adding more stations will result in more nodes. Moving these stations closer together will bring the nodes closer together until you have a string of urban development along the corridor - which in my opinion is much better than a series of disconnected nodes. Many would argue that the constant string will happen regardless of station spacing, assuming appropriate land uses policies are used. If this is true, we run into the problem of serving the areas between stops. In my experience on the 97 Yonge bus, people don't won't ride 500 metres to the next station. They tend to ride all the way to the major terminal, resulting in a second tier of service for people who have destinations between stations.

3) For an able bodied person, walking a few hundred metres isn't a problem. But, we also want to encourage people to do their shopping on the corridor and carry big boxes home with them. We want to make it accessible to seniors and people with disabilities who may not be able to walk that far. Of course they could use the overlap bus service, but that results in the problems above.

And then there is the matter of serving the existing development... Through Rexdale, Jane-Finch and generally most of the corridor, many of the mid-block stops are just as well used as the major arteries. I grew up there, and while I'm not an expert, it wouldn't be right to improve transit for the minority of riders on the corridor and make others walk much further.

I'm not saying that 1.0 kilometre station spacing is bad, I'm saying that it doesn't fit with the objective of the transit city philosophy.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I respectfully disagree. The object of Transit City is to improve local service along the corridor. Moving to station spacing at this distance would require a bus route to overlap the LRT line, defeating the purpose of improving local service along the corridor.

1) These are not going to be slow moving streetcars. Preliminary analysis indicate that these vehicles will be traveling faster than the current bus route currently does, and much faster than any downtown streetcar line ever does.

2) If an urban node really does develop around stations, then adding more stations will result in more nodes. Moving these stations closer together will bring the nodes closer together until you have a string of urban development along the corridor - which in my opinion is much better than a series of disconnected nodes. Many would argue that the constant string will happen regardless of station spacing, assuming appropriate land uses policies are used. If this is true, we run into the problem of serving the areas between stops. In my experience on the 97 Yonge bus, people don't won't ride 500 metres to the next station. They tend to ride all the way to the major terminal, resulting in a second tier of service for people who have destinations between stations.

3) For an able bodied person, walking a few hundred metres isn't a problem. But, we also want to encourage people to do their shopping on the corridor and carry big boxes home with them. We want to make it accessible to seniors and people with disabilities who may not be able to walk that far. Of course they could use the overlap bus service, but that results in the problems above.

And then there is the matter of serving the existing development... Through Rexdale, Jane-Finch and generally most of the corridor, many of the mid-block stops are just as well used as the major arteries. I grew up there, and while I'm not an expert, it wouldn't be right to improve transit for the minority of riders on the corridor and make others walk much further.

I'm not saying that 1.0 kilometre station spacing is bad, I'm saying that it doesn't fit with the objective of the transit city philosophy.

For comparison, walking from the Rogers Centre (Skydome) to Spadina va Bremner is about 215m. Walking from the Rogers Centre to Union Station via the skywalk is about 780m. So a 1000m station spacing is more than that from Rogers Centre to Union Station via the skywalk.

 

[rbt]

What about the underground high voltage lines near Sunnyside on the Lake Shore. Before the Gardiner Expressway, they were above ground, now they are buried.

Good find. First, those tracks are a fair distance to the side. My understanding of the Finch line is that it would have run directly under the electrical lines.

Second, the voltage is very different. The Ontario wiring charts (IESO, 10 year outlook) indicate the Finch corridor is 230kV.

The 10's and 20's generally used 25kV to 33kV lines. Underground corridors in downtown Toronto today are 115kV. Appears these might be upgraded to 230kV someday soon as the new Front Street tunnel is explicitly marked at 230kV carrying a 115kV load.

Of course, it is also possible that they had excessive wear and tear on the rails from carrying a mild electrical load and simply replaced the rails every 5 to 10 years. I really don't know anything about the history in this area -- just assumptions.

It isn't necessarily dangerous depending on just how much leakage there is -- just a bummer on maintenance.

Most rails in TTC streetcar rails carry some load -- this is very evident when they replace broken rail. The bottom portion of the rail at the end of a broken joint tapers to a sliver looking like something was knawing on it from both sides at the end. This is from electrical current leaking to ground.

 

[Just_Chris]

For comparison, walking from the Rogers Centre (Skydome) to Spadina va Bremner is about 215m. Walking from the Rogers Centre to Union Station via the skywalk is about 780m. So a 1000m station spacing is more than that from Rogers Centre to Union Station via the skywalk.

Yes, but 1000m spacing would mean a max distance of only 500m from any one spot on Finch to the nearest station, significantly less than Union Station via Skywalk, which isn't really that bad a walk - thousands do it for every sporting event.

Maybe some of the stations could be closer than this, but look at Finch between Bathurst and Dufferin. Is there any need for more than one additional stop between those two streets? It's just low-medium density housing, I don't think there are even any businesses there (unless I'm thinking of another stretch).

With regards to people not liking to take the 97 bus on Yonge, and preferring to walk to the nearest subway, isn't people out walking what we want? The Yonge line carries by far the highest people/km of any of our subway lines even with widely spaced stations. The long distances between stations doesn't hinder ridership, and speeds up service (additional stops add 45-60 seconds per stop). I think what has made NYCC so attractive to development is that fact that the subway ride to Yonge/Bloor is under 20 minutes.

 

[yin_yang]

it is clear that anything above 1km (and even that is stretching it) is detrimental for an LRT in that part of town.

 

[RedRocket191]

With regards to people not liking to take the 97 bus on Yonge, and preferring to walk to the nearest subway, isn't people out walking what we want? The Yonge line carries by far the highest people/km of any of our subway lines even with widely spaced stations. The long distances between stations doesn't hinder ridership, and speeds up service (additional stops add 45-60 seconds per stop). I think what has made NYCC so attractive to development is that fact that the subway ride to Yonge/Bloor is under 20 minutes.

That's not what I said about the 97 Yonge Bus

What I said was that once people board it, they don't get off until the end even though they know the subway is faster. I've also seen this on sheppard. If you're going to have long station spacing and make people use the surface bus to get to the station, don't expect them to use the LRT at all.

Look, if we're talking about providing express service to complement local service then 1km station spacing makes sense. But, we're trying to build a line that provides local service and completely eliminates the surface bus. 1 km station spacing doesn't accomplish this.

It all depends on the vision you have for Finch West, and I think the locally oriented vision is a good vision to have.