[urbanclient]

Ok, but what about RATP vs. IDF Mobilites in Paris? Metrolinx is basically our equivalent of IDF Mobilites because Mx only serves the Golden Horseshoe, which is larger than the GTHA. The Horseshoe is about the size of the Paris metropolitan region, which in turn is larger than Ile de France.

Metrolinx is a provincial agency, but it isn't involved in any local transit lines outside the GTHA. Also a reminder, Ontario is larger in area than Metropolitan France and European Spain combined. So functionally, geographically, Metrolinx is IDF, and I don't see that people fervently like RATP over IDF in Paris. RATP's monopoly over transit operations was dismantled by law. Now IDF coordinates the region as RATP is forced to compete with private contractors for operating contracts (e.g. T9 tram).

I'm on the fence about this, I see TTC and Metrolinx as both being wracked with politicking and management lacking technical expertise. That and mind boggling levels of fresh out of business/engineering school incompetence.

 

[Northern Light]

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

I agree with you here, and didn't mean to convey that grace was due to those who have failed so badly here; as the subsequent clause in my statement suggests.

I meant, in general, grace is a reasonable ask, and then went on to suggest, that that really doesn't apply here.

****

But now these incompetent people get to look like heros.

I don't think so. I think IF (big if ) the Mayor is able to drive structural change, not just in the way Finch operates, but all the streetcars and to a lesser, but real degree, the bus system too, then she will get plaudits, since no Mayor has managed to tame that beast to date.

But the actual people in the consortium at Mx and TTC will not come out of this smelling likes roses any which way, nor will uncooperated people in Transportation services who have consistently fought restrictions on left turns, and true transit priority.

Michael Lindsay and Mandeep Lali will get a marginal reprieve, because they are relatively new to their post; though Lindsay is elbows deep in this mess from his days at Infrastructure Ontario.....but any reprieve will only come if Finch if fixed and Eglinton does not have the same problems on launch.

 

[APTA-2048]

Ok, but what about RATP vs. IDF Mobilites in Paris? Metrolinx is basically our equivalent of IDF Mobilites because Mx only serves the Golden Horseshoe, which is larger than the GTHA. The Horseshoe is about the size of the Paris metropolitan region, which in turn is larger than Ile de France.

Metrolinx is a provincial agency, but it isn't involved in any local transit lines outside the GTHA. Also a reminder, Ontario is larger in area than Metropolitan France and European Spain combined. So functionally, geographically, Metrolinx is IDF, and I don't see that people fervently like RATP over IDF in Paris. RATP's monopoly over transit operations was dismantled by law. Now IDF coordinates the region as RATP is forced to compete with private contractors for operating contracts (e.g. T9 tram).

I'm on the fence about this, I see TTC and Metrolinx as both being wracked with politicking and management lacking technical expertise. That and mind boggling levels of fresh out of business/engineering school incompetence.

Is it really the same though? What are the politics involved with IDF Mobilities? How much say does each municipality have over funding and allocation of resources?

If Metrolinx controls the TTC, you think the Province wouldn’t want to micromanage every aspect of it? You want an agency that is influenced by more voters outside of the city to do that? If you think the TTC is underfunded now…

Hence my comparison with SEPTA.

Additional point: having competing private contractors has become a race to the bottom in York Region.

 

[Northern Light]

Ill go one better. I think this is proof the transit system needs to be uploaded to the province and the TTC disbanded. They've proven they are unable to do their job.

The TTC is problem-plagued, there's no arguing the point, I wouildn't dream of it.

That said, Metrolinx are no better. Sure GO Trains are broadly more reliable, but off-peak service, where it exists, is mostly hourly outside of Lakeshore, and then only 30 minutes.

Mx contracts most operations and maintenance to third parties, meaning the bulk of its management team have limited knowledge in how to build or operate things.

Mx has also been the home of countless capital project boondoggles, including this one.

Meanwhile, if you did 'abolish' the TTC, the reality on the ground is that it would just be a name change and a new top boss.

The organization is 17,000 people, with far more subject matter experts and vast amounts of work done in house. Some of it, not as well as it ought to be; but then again, the TTC has moved to bring vehicle cleaning back in house
as the private sector was no great shakes at that either.

The TTC (and Mx) need substantial reforms. But I wouldn't get tied up with a giant re-org/re-naming that will really leave all same problems, just an even bigger bureaucratic morass.

Functionally any Mx takeover of the TTC would simply be a reverse-take over, where the TTC swamps Mx.

You'd just be paying to move Mx Staff into Davisville or find the combined office a new HQ as Union certainly would not serve purpose.

 

[robmausser]

The fact that no effort was made to manage the expectations of the public suggests they thought they would get away with this abysmal performance and didn't need to pre-empt calls to improve. People will give grace when you show contrition and intent to improve out of your own initiative and not because you were shamed into it.

Even an announcement on opening day

"hey, we are still testing things and speeds will increase"

but the thing is, thats not what this is. The TTC is actually PROUD of this launch and this line. They thought this was OK. There was no mandate to improve schedules, and in fact they argued at the town hall the other night that speeding up trains would mean they are ahead of schedule. So they were perfectly fine with the line taking 47 minutes from end to end.

There was no plan to improve, everything they are saying that this is just a teething phase and they will speed up trains later is damage control and revisionist history.

 

[KhalilHeron]

I will give it that the TTC tried to remove about 70 stops on the network 10 years ago and every councilor in that area where they wanted to remove them protested and complained. So only like 20 got removed, if that.

Yea Policy is for the TTC to try and remove stops that are too close together whenever the opportunity comes up but councillors have to be notified each time and almost every time they block the removal. If the political will is finally here, the TTC will be glad to get rid of plenty more.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The thing is, everything we have gotten in Toronto so far isnt even true LRT.

In Toronto, LRT is light rail transit, not light rapid transit.

 

[nightstreak]

Updated Map:

View attachment 702061View attachment 702062View attachment 702064

Why are they clinging to these outdated lightbulbs behind a printed map? Wouldn't a display be more useful and dynamic for conveying information? A static map on the screen, callouts for the upcoming station and interchanges and above ground connections, service notices. That would be more useful than trying to cram everything on a map.

 

[urbanclient]

Even an announcement on opening day

"hey, we are still testing things and speeds will increase"

but the thing is, thats not what this is. The TTC is actually PROUD of this launch and this line. They thought this was OK. There was no mandate to improve schedules, and in fact they argued at the town hall the other night that speeding up trains would mean they are ahead of schedule. So they were perfectly fine with the line taking 47 minutes from end to end.

There was no plan to improve, everything they are saying that this is just a teething phase and they will speed up trains later is damage control and revisionist history.

AFAIK the TTC argued that speeding up trains would increase operating costs. Which is actually stupid. Operating costs would go down if fewer, faster trains covered the route, necessitating fewer operators.

Because TTC claims that if the ran the trains faster, they would need to consult Metrolinx and Mosaic because faster running trains would increase the operational and maintenance burden on Mosaic/Metrolinx

Finch West Line 6 LRT

No, this isn't what was said. Staff said the aggressive form of TSP -- giving transit the signal ahead of left turning vehicles -- would be new to North America. Not that TSP entirely isn't used elsewhere. Let me give you a revelation. It is NOT new to North America, these people are willfully...

urbantoronto.ca

Even though, as Steve Munro points out, running the trains faster would actually require less service, not more

https://twitter.com/x/status/1998843375768789334

 

[Bordercollie]

AFAIK the TTC argued that speeding up trains would increase operating costs. Which is actually stupid. Operating costs would go down if fewer, faster trains covered the route, necessitating fewer operators.

More operating hours for ops.
More wear and tear because you complete trips faster you do more trips which means less spares and more maintenance on equipment and track.

And more consumption of power.

How much does that cost? Maybe 10-15%.

 

[urbanclient]

More operating hours for ops.
More wear and tear because you complete trips faster you do more trips which means less spares and more maintenance on equipment and track.

And more consumption of power.

How much does that cost? Maybe 10-15%.

I'm too lazy to type this:

*edit for wider screenshot

 

[Bordercollie]

I'm too lazy to type this:
View attachment 702238

So it's a no brainer

 

[afransen]

More operating hours for ops.
More wear and tear because you complete trips faster you do more trips which means less spares and more maintenance on equipment and track.

And more consumption of power.

How much does that cost? Maybe 10-15%.

If you need 10 vehicles to provide 10 minute frequency and 100 minute route time, then if you can do the same route in 80 minutes, you only need 8 vehicles, 8 operators, etc. to provide the same exact frequency and throughput. Each vehicle in operation travels more km per day, but there are fewer vehicle hours of operation. Higher speeds might mean more wheel wear, suspension wear, brakes, etc. but it is probably an overall savings I would think vs having more vehicles in operation.

 

[Bojaxs]

A lot of people really oversell how much of this project is elevated. It’s a small section, conveniently in Thorncliffe Park and Flemingdon Park. I think many underestimate how much push back elevated will receive. I’m not saying it’s right. I would just like to warn people not to get their hopes up.

Yea the elevated sections of line 3 and 5 give me some hope but we are yet to see elevated rail near single family homes, which is where most of the pushback would come from. Its a whole other beast getting people on board in an environment like thisView attachment 702189
compared to this
View attachment 702190
doesnt help that a lot of people in Thorncliffe and Flemingdon park who may be opposed to the project dont speak fluent english or do not have the political power or no how to make their voices heard.

Are the elevated portions of Line 3 & 5 really elevated tracks? Or are they just bridges? All the elevated portions of these lines are going over rivers. It makes more sense to bridge over a river than to tunnel under it.

I'm assuming that the Thorncliffe station and tracks are elevated because the Don River straddles the area.

It wasn't like there was a concerted effort to choose elevated tracks over tunneling. It just made sense to elevate in these sections.

 

[afransen]

Are the elevated portions of Line 3 & 5 really elevated tracks? Or are they just bridges? All the elevated portions of these lines are going over rivers. It makes more sense to bridge over a river than to tunnel under it.

I'm assuming that the Thorncliffe station and tracks are elevated because the Don River straddles the area.

It wasn't like there was a concerted effort to choose elevated tracks over tunneling. It just made sense to elevate in these sections.

Line 3 is elevated north of the Don to Eglinton. It terminates elevated, suggesting the intent would be to extend it further as elevated.

Ontario Line - North Elevated Guideway and Stations

The North Elevated Guideway and Stations project is one of many contracts to deliver the Ontario Line, a 15.6-kilometre stand-alone rapid transit line that will connect the Ontario Science Centre to Exhibition/Ontario Place.

www.infrastructureontario.ca