[Solid Snake]

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/completion/ea_report_master_part1.pdf
Page 9

The Sheppard East line brings nothing in a regional perspective. Metrolinx made clear that they wanted future investments to have a regional impact. The Sheppard line study neglected to calculate that a subway would also cut the travel time forYork region and Durham region passengers in a very significant way.

If you approched the Sheppard corridor in a regional perspective, subway is the way to go. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that YRT, Durham and Go would reroute some of their route to Sheppard Lrt Stops. The LRT would do nothing to improve traffic on Yonge Street where most of the GO and YRT buses uses to reach Finch Station and this would not change with an LRT.

I also noticed that when they were estimating the project ridership for the Sheppard Subway line, not a word on the impacts of the YRT, GO rerouting their lines, not a word on potential drivers from the suburbs leaving their cars at Sheppard subway stations. Their projections are based on the areas close to Sheppard Avenue only which is a mistake. A subway would attract people from much far away.

Why haven't they studied Downsview to STC for a subway line? Studiying Don Mills to Meadowvale for a subway line is just forcing the numbers to justify the LRT over the subway.


Back on topic to fix Transit City...

-Eglinton's underground should be from Jane to Don Mills for phase 1 with LRT technology
-Than the city should budget to open a station per year along eglinton (Richview Corridor would drastically reduce the cost in the western part.

-Sheppard should be a subway from STC to Downsview

-Finch should still be built after the subway plan is taking cared of...Put Express branches in the meanwhile

-An Eglinton Subway might cut the need to have an LRT on Jane all the way to Bloor. It could stop at Eglinton or meet a future St.Clair Streetcar...Eglinton and Jane could be a final stop for a western DRL line

-Don Mills could have LRT from Steeles to Eglinton (Eglinton and Don Mills would be a good final station for a East DRL line)

-Instead of Sheppard LRT, they could explore the possibility of having Islington LRT, Lawrence LRT, Wilson/York Mills/ Ellesmere LRT


Thanks for reading my first post

 

[EnviroTO]

The point is that a big investment in rapid transit will benefit the entire system, not just a small stretch of land.

Only if that investment puts many stations in walking distance of properties where people live and work.

Your idea of "building up value" is kind of flawed, because you're calling for a $1 billion expense on something you're expecting to need a different technology in 30 years, for the purpose of "building up value" which the new technology would be able to do anyways.

If technology companies waited for the day they could afford to build the ultimate end solution there would be no technology companies. You always start small and work your way up. You build what is required now and for the next 10 to 15 years. If "building up value" is flawed then throw away all the investment plans that exist. If you must invest a huge amount on day one then only billionaires need investments. Why not pull buses off Sheppard completely since starting small and working your way up is so flawed? If Woodstock wants to become a major city is their day one plan to build a subway, a stadium which holds 60,000 people, an opera house than holds 40,000, etc, etc? It makes no sense to invest today for a time 30 years from now when you can't afford to provide adequate service to the people today. The first building built at King and Bay wasn't a 60+ storey skyscraper... it took an evolutionary process to get to that.

With Toronto's current population the city has close to a $10 billion dollar operating budget. If Toronto builds LRT and manages to make the areas of decreasing or stable population turn into high population growth areas then their budget to pay for things will be higher. That is investing a certain amount of money into an area with an expectation of getting that value back through growth in that local economy. It is the whole basis for the BCA's that Metrolinx is doing.

It's like buying your Condo out of university, and then burning it to the ground when it comes time to buy your house. Not to mention that future subway costs could become insanely high.
Toronto is going to need more subway sometime, it's just a question of when.

No it isn't because the value of the LRT will have been realized, just like the dirt road which became the two lane asphalt road which became the 4 lane road. Making that 4 lane road into a 4 lane road with two tracks is a natural evolution of increasing needs for capacity over time. You could argue why build dirt roads when some day there might be need for LRT levels of carrying capacity... but that is looking too far into the future to a point where the need might never exist. You buy a condo for an investment so burning your investment is a waste of money. You build an LRT to serve the capacity an LRT is meant to deliver and to make an area more desirable to live, work, and invest in due to greater mobility. If 30 years after installing LRT you have a thriving corridor which requires a subway it is proof that you have built value and every 30 years LRT tracks need replacing anyways. Without the LRT growth would be stymied by congestion. There are already developers up in arms about the cancellation of Transit City because they know that without decent transit properties further from the core are harder to sell at a good return.

And I'll give you a hint; the earlier we build it, the earlier we are able to appreciate its benefits.

No, the earlier we build it the earlier we pay for it. We can't get the benefits without utilizing it fully and there aren't enough passengers to do so. You don't get improved benefits flying an A380 from Toronto to London, Ontario if the number of passengers going there matches what a Q400 delivers.

 

[Dan416]

I think we should go back to calling Transit City by its real name: Transfer City.

 

[nfitz]

I think we should go back to calling Transit City by its real name: Transfer City.

I'm not sure where you get this. It's never been called that except by some ignorant fools who don't comprehend how it works. There will be far less transfers with the Transit City plan if it is built, than with Ford's useless subway plan.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think we should go back to calling Transit City by its real name: Transfer City.

Without covering the city any alternate plan will likely have the same amount of transfers. The three main transfers of "Transfer City" are:
a) the transfer at Kennedy to get on the SRT which leads to SCC and Malvern,
b) the transfer at Don Mills to get to the rest of Sheppard, and
c) the transfers required to get between the Finch West LRT and the Sheppard East LRT.
Where Transit City had no transfers was on Eglinton.

Rob Ford's replacement plan would:
a) eliminate the transfer at Kennedy for people going to SCC but keep a transfer to go to Malvern,
b) keep the transfer to the rest of Sheppard but move it east to Kennedy,
c) have the same amount of transfer to get to Finch West which would remain an off schedule slow moving bus, and
d) have more transfers to go from one end of Eglinton to the other.

Basically it is problem not solved because the network still remains too small to eliminate most transfers. Unless we believe Scarborough Centre is where bulk of Torontonians are living and working I'm going to guess that we will not have been too successful at eliminating transfers in the city. We will have eliminated possibly two of the more frustrating ones but will have kept in place or added ones where they would not have existed in Transit City.

 

[gweed123]

Just brainstorming here. The biggest issue with the Jane LRT is the tunnel south of Eglinton. Since the ECLRT tunnel will have excess capacity (theoretically), why not have 1 route run the ECLRT route, and a 2nd route be an interlined route, running the Jane LRT, ECLRT central portion, and then curving north again to become the Don Mills LRT, heading up to Sheppard-Don Mills? This will reduce the number of transfers for people coming from both the Jane and Don Mills LRTs, as they would be able to ride the same LRV to either Eglinton-Allen or Eglinton-Yonge stations. It would reduce the pressure on B-D as well. And assuming the DRL East is built up to Eglinton, the DMLRT would terminate at Eglinton anyway, so people coming south on Don Mills would have the option to transfer onto the DRL, or continue along and go to Eglinton-Yonge.

If you're going to go through the added expense of tunnelling an LRT line, might as well have it branch outside of the tunnel, so that you can maximize ridership potential inside of the tunnel.

 

[JWBF]

As I said, the focus of this is on phase 1 plans, things which the funding is set and are ready to go, so that we don't lose this opportunity like we have so many others... Finch is in phase 2, which is why it is not included here. The Downtown Relief Line is currently in phase 3 of Metrolinx's plans, though it is possible it will be upgraded to phase 2.

Sorry, brain fart.

 

[jaycola]

In my opinion it's a fairly balanced plan in terms of serving the greatest number of residents and employees with a significantly lower capital investment than subways yet a greater carrying capacity than buses.

Eglinton should just go ahead as planned. With so much of it underground and recognising that Eglinton is the northern boundry of the densest part of the city, this route should be a priorty and should move ahead as quickly as possible.

Some of the other routes may be better suited to a busway or combination of Bus/HOV route with vehicles like the Viva bus in the mean time, but action should be taken on all the identified lines as quickly as possible.

I have attached images of the line along with maps of population density and economic density. It looks to me that the selection of the lines was quite logical.

Limiting auto and LRT interaction would be disirable but I don't think it is necessary to have the 2 transit modes on exclusive routes. Creating a system similar to HOV lanes where at certain times, routs are LRT only seem reasonable. As well, where a streetcar comes behind a vehicle turning left, there should be a system in place where the streetcar can stop oncoming traffic to allow a vehicle in it's path to get out of the way.

 

[kEiThZ]

c) the transfers required to get between the Finch West LRT and the Sheppard East LRT.
Where Transit City had no transfers was on Eglinton.

Rob Ford's replacement plan would:...
d) have more transfers to go from one end of Eglinton to the other.

Transit City had a transfer on Eglinton at Kennedy station which made no sense. Eglinton should a through corridor from Kingston Road to the airport. It was the boneheaded planners who decided to replicate the Morningside bus with the SMLRT at the expense of an unnecessary transfer for riders along Eglinton East.

 

[Amy Rose]

Some of the other routes may be better suited to a busway or combination of Bus/HOV route with vehicles like the Viva bus in the mean time, but action should be taken on all the identified lines as quickly as possible.

and where will the busways be? oh thats right! sharing car lanes! well thats bad, lets tunnel it!
Serious talk though, where will you find the space to operate a busway since Toronto is well developed and there are only few dead highway corridors and preserved urban areas.

 

[jje1000]

Elevated Rail, anyone?



Elevated trains: Metrolinx offers subway alternative
Natalie Alcoba December 20, 2010 – 10:34 pm

Metrolinx, Ontario’s regional transportation agency, has tossed another option into Toronto’s transit rethink: elevated train corridors.

Tasked with coming up with a plan that scraps surface transit routes, Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig and chairman Rob Prichard met with Mayor Rob Ford’s chief of staff, Nick Kouvalis, his director of policy, Mark Towhey, and TTC chairwoman Karen Stintz on Friday at City Hall. Mr. McCuaig called it a “constructive and collegial” exchange.

The message from the Mayor’s office was that “minimizing the impact on traffic” (also known as preserving road space for vehicles) is “very important” to him; Metrolinx said there are alternatives to tunnelling underground.

“In some cases there might be a wide enough right of way to accommodate an LRT” while maintaining the same number of traffic lanes, Mr. McCuaig said in an interview.

“Another way of potentially addressing it is going up, instead of going down. We owe it to the people to look at all the alternatives.”

And while it’s clear that the Mayor is intent on building subways, he is also prepared to hear Metrolinx out.

“The Mayor’s office is certainly looking forward to working with Metrolinx and the TTC about the Mayor’s priorities to build subways,” said Adrienne Batra, Mr. Ford’s press secretary. “There is also a good opportunity here for there to be other options presented and we look forward to hearing what those are.”

Mr. Ford’s priority is extending the Sheppard subway from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre.

Metrolinx is pushing for the Eglinton Crosstown, a light-rail line across the city that would include a 10-kilometre stretch underground, which is valued for its “regional” benefits. Mr. McCuaig said an Eglinton line would relieve the congested Yonge line and link up with GO Transit hubs.

“We’re hearing that that project has some support from the city as well,” said Mr. McCuaig.

Ms. Stintz said she expects to see a revised plan, with various options, by the end of January.

She said it is premature to judge the viability of building an elevated line. Ultimately, any changes to the plan will have to consider the limited funds available from the province, which is paying for most of the new transit, and meeting the Mayor’s target of completing a Sheppard line in time for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

The provincial government had put up $3.1-billion for the first phase of transit expansion, and is firm that there isn’t any more. Some of that money has been spent; the TTC and Metrolinx have also signed $1.3-billion worth of contracts that will cost money to break.

Mr. McCuaig said an elevated line is “less expensive than going underground” but could not give a per-kilometre estimate because it depends on the site. “When you look at places like Vancouver, they were able to integrate the SkyTrain and the Canada Line very effectively in the urban environment,” said Mr. McCuaig.

Toronto has some experience with the technology: The aging Scarborough RT operates on stretches of elevated track. Richard Soberman, a transportation consultant who was vice-president of the company that supplied the parts for the RT in the 1970s, said the city considered at the time putting the elevated tracks along the less populated stretches of Eglinton Avenue. The community objected to the “visual intrusion,” he said.

“I think it would be a tough sell in the modern era when people are a lot more concerned with the urban landscape,” said Mr. Soberman. “But it’s not something that shouldn’t be considered.”

National Post

Read more: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/1...linx-offers-subway-alternative/#ixzz18imRsfRy

 

[Electrify]

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/completion/ea_report_master_part1.pdf
Page 9

The Sheppard East line brings nothing in a regional perspective. Metrolinx made clear that they wanted future investments to have a regional impact. The Sheppard line study neglected to calculate that a subway would also cut the travel time forYork region and Durham region passengers in a very significant way.

If you approched the Sheppard corridor in a regional perspective, subway is the way to go. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that YRT, Durham and Go would reroute some of their route to Sheppard Lrt Stops. The LRT would do nothing to improve traffic on Yonge Street where most of the GO and YRT buses uses to reach Finch Station and this would not change with an LRT.

I also noticed that when they were estimating the project ridership for the Sheppard Subway line, not a word on the impacts of the YRT, GO rerouting their lines, not a word on potential drivers from the suburbs leaving their cars at Sheppard subway stations. Their projections are based on the areas close to Sheppard Avenue only which is a mistake. A subway would attract people from much far away.

Why haven't they studied Downsview to STC for a subway line? Studiying Don Mills to Meadowvale for a subway line is just forcing the numbers to justify the LRT over the subway.


Back on topic to fix Transit City...

-Eglinton's underground should be from Jane to Don Mills for phase 1 with LRT technology
-Than the city should budget to open a station per year along eglinton (Richview Corridor would drastically reduce the cost in the western part.

-Sheppard should be a subway from STC to Downsview

-Finch should still be built after the subway plan is taking cared of...Put Express branches in the meanwhile

-An Eglinton Subway might cut the need to have an LRT on Jane all the way to Bloor. It could stop at Eglinton or meet a future St.Clair Streetcar...Eglinton and Jane could be a final stop for a western DRL line

-Don Mills could have LRT from Steeles to Eglinton (Eglinton and Don Mills would be a good final station for a East DRL line)

-Instead of Sheppard LRT, they could explore the possibility of having Islington LRT, Lawrence LRT, Wilson/York Mills/ Ellesmere LRT


Thanks for reading my first post

Great first post

The last page of your link explains the reasoning behind the tight stop spacing, however I question their conclusions. If stops are 800 meters apart, that means the halfway point is only 400m - a 5 minute walk. While some may take a local bus to the LRT stop and transfer, Most will probably walk unless they see one coming. Even if they do get on a local bus, they may decide to take it for the duration of their trip rather than transfer. York Region has this setup with the Viva Blue and 99 bus routes. Usually unless I'm going south of Highway 7, I'll take whichever bus comes first. Sometimes the 99 ends up being faster than the Viva, because people will end up walking to the express stops rather than the local ones and will decide to wait for the Viva instead.

I also question their findings of the average speed being at most 27km/h with 800m stops. According to the report, the Bloor-Danforth line has an average speed of 30km/h, but with the exception of the very ends has stops spaced about 600m apart. Even without signal priority, it is unlikely it will get every red light. Unless it is poorly managed, with 800m stops and no signal priority, I'd expect it to be virtually the same as the B-D line. With signal priority, it would easily exceed it.

 

[Electrify]

Elevated Rail, anyone?



Elevated trains: Metrolinx offers subway alternative
Natalie Alcoba December 20, 2010 – 10:34 pm

Metrolinx, Ontario’s regional transportation agency, has tossed another option into Toronto’s transit rethink: elevated train corridors.

Tasked with coming up with a plan that scraps surface transit routes, Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig and chairman Rob Prichard met with Mayor Rob Ford’s chief of staff, Nick Kouvalis, his director of policy, Mark Towhey, and TTC chairwoman Karen Stintz on Friday at City Hall. Mr. McCuaig called it a “constructive and collegial” exchange.

The message from the Mayor’s office was that “minimizing the impact on traffic” (also known as preserving road space for vehicles) is “very important” to him; Metrolinx said there are alternatives to tunnelling underground.

“In some cases there might be a wide enough right of way to accommodate an LRT” while maintaining the same number of traffic lanes, Mr. McCuaig said in an interview.

“Another way of potentially addressing it is going up, instead of going down. We owe it to the people to look at all the alternatives.”

And while it’s clear that the Mayor is intent on building subways, he is also prepared to hear Metrolinx out.

“The Mayor’s office is certainly looking forward to working with Metrolinx and the TTC about the Mayor’s priorities to build subways,” said Adrienne Batra, Mr. Ford’s press secretary. “There is also a good opportunity here for there to be other options presented and we look forward to hearing what those are.”

Mr. Ford’s priority is extending the Sheppard subway from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre.

Metrolinx is pushing for the Eglinton Crosstown, a light-rail line across the city that would include a 10-kilometre stretch underground, which is valued for its “regional” benefits. Mr. McCuaig said an Eglinton line would relieve the congested Yonge line and link up with GO Transit hubs.

“We’re hearing that that project has some support from the city as well,” said Mr. McCuaig.

Ms. Stintz said she expects to see a revised plan, with various options, by the end of January.

She said it is premature to judge the viability of building an elevated line. Ultimately, any changes to the plan will have to consider the limited funds available from the province, which is paying for most of the new transit, and meeting the Mayor’s target of completing a Sheppard line in time for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

The provincial government had put up $3.1-billion for the first phase of transit expansion, and is firm that there isn’t any more. Some of that money has been spent; the TTC and Metrolinx have also signed $1.3-billion worth of contracts that will cost money to break.

Mr. McCuaig said an elevated line is “less expensive than going underground” but could not give a per-kilometre estimate because it depends on the site. “When you look at places like Vancouver, they were able to integrate the SkyTrain and the Canada Line very effectively in the urban environment,” said Mr. McCuaig.

Toronto has some experience with the technology: The aging Scarborough RT operates on stretches of elevated track. Richard Soberman, a transportation consultant who was vice-president of the company that supplied the parts for the RT in the 1970s, said the city considered at the time putting the elevated tracks along the less populated stretches of Eglinton Avenue. The community objected to the “visual intrusion,” he said.

“I think it would be a tough sell in the modern era when people are a lot more concerned with the urban landscape,” said Mr. Soberman. “But it’s not something that shouldn’t be considered.”

National Post

Read more: http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/1...linx-offers-subway-alternative/#ixzz18imRsfRy

Maybe Bombardier can give us a deal on the same monorail design their using for Sao Paulo?

 

[superman]

Win-Win

Didn't Metrolinx originally want Eglinton to be elevated anyway to meet with the SRT to make it a regional line.

Looks like a win-win situation if they get an elevated Eglinton line as Metrolinx gets what it originally wants and Ford gets transit not at-grade.

 

[Dan416]

It's too bad Ford has nixed the elevated idea without so much as a second thought.

Although to be fair, the El in Chicago is frickin' FREEZING in the winter when you're waiting at 2 or 3 am for the next train in an elevated station. *shiver*