[unimaginative2]

Harper certainly has no interest in rail. During the latter part of the Liberal era, VIA got all of the British Nightstock equipment which was to be used for expanding service. Unfortunately, it's been tied up in legal wrangling over wheelchair accessibility.

1. On the CP Havelock Sub, is there room for the addition of more tracks in the right of way? And on the same topic, is there still an existing rail line and station that runs through Peterborough?

This question has already been answered, but I'd add that single track with frequent sidings is usually enough for all but the most frequent service.

2. I know that local Kitchener and Guelph media from time to time bring up the idea of improving rail service in their cities. Are there are any other cities or parts of the GTA where there is the same kind of local pressure to push for better rail connections?

There's definitely a lot of pressure in Barrie. I think there's some interest in Niagara Region too. I don't know much about other places.

3. With regards too GO's train service, what plans, if any, do they have for future extensions? I know most of the work they are doing right now is adding tracks to existing lines and such. But beyond Barrie and Peterborough, where are they looking seriously at heading next?

Besides Barrie, I don't think there are any places where they're seriously looking. In terms of bus service, they've put out a report recommending bus service from Kitchener and Cambridge to, I belive, the new Lisgar station. That could eventually be expanded to rail service. I think they're also talking about buses to St. Catharines.

4. Who owns the tracks at Union Station? Is this still under the ownership of CN or are there are any special arrangements specifically for the station and that small section of the corridor?

The tracks from the Don to the junction with the Weston Sub were always owned by the Toronto Terminals Railway, a joint venture between CN and CP. A couple of years ago, it was bought by GO Transit. They own the tracks, including through Union Station, while the station building and the under-track area is owned by the City of Toronto.

5. On a map I see that GO Danforth station is perhaps a block or two away from a subway station on the Bloor line. In actuality, how close (or far) are these two stations from each other and is there any connection for easy transferring built between them?

It's sort of a long block. You just have to walk up to the surface and along Main Street. It would be possible, if somewhat expensive, to build a tunnel.

I don't understand these issues with the Mount Royal tunnel. Didn't they just install a whole new electrical system? There's no reason why a double-tracked tunnel couldn't handle trains every two minutes at the very least. That should be more than enough for as many commuter rail lines as they want. Just install the same signalling as they use in the New York tunnels or any European S-Bahn/RER route.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

You are right. Collinette was the last Federal Minister to bring up the idea of HSR. It was right around the time of the Lynx proposal actually when he first started speaking about it publicly and probably around the time of Martin and company taking over the Liberals that it came to an end. In terms of funding for VIA, I think they originally were going to get $700 million, but that was then reduced too $300 million, basically the money that had already been spent or committed.

I cannot see Harper making any investments in VIA either. So long as he doesn't make any cuts I think VIA's time under Harper will have been a success. It probably will take a Liberal governing party in Ottawa too make it happen. Not because I think anyone from the Liberals will be pushing for the idea and make it happen. Though there is bound to be some internal influence I could very easily see a lot of the pressure coming from the NDP, the Greens, and other interested parties and businesses. By and large the Liberals roll will be a link to businesses and corporations and at least keep them at bay and quiet long enough to get MPs on board and everything passed in the house.

Though I don't think much will happen in the next few years with all the elections that are going to take place in Ottawa, and in Ontario and Quebec. Seems a good time to sit back, watch the show, and do something constructive rather than get involved in all that nonsense right now.

I don't understand these issues with the Mount Royal tunnel. Didn't they just install a whole new electrical system? There's no reason why a double-tracked tunnel couldn't handle trains every two minutes at the very least. That should be more than enough for as many commuter rail lines as they want. Just install the same signalling as they use in the New York tunnels or any European S-Bahn/RER route.

They did install a new electrical system in 1995 which replaced the old 3000 V DC catenary with a 25 kV AC system. The problem seems to be with concerns about adding extra loads and quite a few glitches and problems they are currently having with it. As for the tunnel, the main problem are its dimensions. For example, the Bi-level EMUs they are purchasing have a height restrictions which limits their options. At the moment it is something they can manage since only two lines are going to use the tunnel but if they want to add more lines and services which may require rolling stock not able too meet the tunnel dimensions, then that is where the restrictions come in. It is less a short term issue than one that they know is going to be a concern in the longer term.

A lot of the problems they are having now really come down to poor planning when AMT began expanding commuter service in the 90's. A lot of their original projections underestimated ridership and demand for commuter rail in that part of Montreal and the North Shore. And since the Mascouche line was funded and announced they have run into problems with CN as well as other unanticipated problems. There are ad-hoc ways they can deal with some of the problems (such as the wonky alignment towards the end of the Mascouche line) but too expand further the line from Central Station too the North Shore will have to be completely modernized.

And thanks for all that information Unimaginative. That is a great help to me.

 

[cdl42]

A lot of the problems they are having now really come down to poor planning when AMT began expanding commuter service in the 90's. A lot of their original projections underestimated ridership and demand for commuter rail in that part of Montreal and the North Shore. And since the Mascouche line was funded and announced they have run into problems with CN as well as other unanticipated problems.

Seems to be a common story, and one that we'll hear more and more of if and when commuter rail expands across the country. Demand is consistently being shown to be greater than initally thought. I can't help but think that we currently have a regulatory and ownership situation that couldn't possibly be designed in a worse way for commuter and suburban passenger rail services.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

I can't help but think that we currently have a regulatory and ownership situation that couldn't possibly be designed in a worse way for commuter and suburban passenger rail services.

That is a good a summary of the situation as any. Creative solutions and mind numbing exercises in efficiency have, and will work in the short term as a way too at least accommodate for some growth and expansion. But the fundamental ownership and regulatory structure will have to change soon before anything truly ambitious can be undertaken. If there is one positive aspect of the troubles the GO and AMT are now facing more often with regards to rail ownership it is that it adds their voice to fight. VIA on its own has been pretty limited in what it can do. But the more parties that become affected by the issue, the better the chances of the problems being dealt with.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Here is an interesting comparison of the AMT commuter rail system in 1999, what the future plan for it was in 2000, and how it exists today.

AMT Commuter Rail 1999

AMT Planned Expansion 2000

AMT 2007 (Operational Lines Only)

If you consider how much has been built, and add in the Mascouche Line underway, overall, they have done well at meeting their targets. Some things of interest. You can see that in 1999 the Blainville line wasn't even connected too a downtown station. On the second map you can see a little stub off the Deux-Montagne line that heads to the airport which I cannot say I have seen reappear since. The second map also shows the original routing of the separated Mascouche and Repentigny line. The Vernes line that branches off at St. Bruno I have no idea what the status is. But the St. Jean extension is still being worked on.

When you consider the expansion they have undergone, it is actually not too surprising that they are running into the problems they are now. It will be interesting in a few years time to see what the next plan will be (especially with all the problems they now have and all the other ideas being bounced around).

 

[unimaginative2]

Collinette was the last Federal Minister to bring up the idea of HSR. It was right around the time of the Lynx proposal actually when he first started speaking about it publicly and probably around the time of Martin and company taking over the Liberals that it came to an end. In terms of funding for VIA, I think they originally were going to get $700 million, but that was then reduced too $300 million, basically the money that had already been spent or committed.

Collenette was indeed a railfan since his youth in Britain, and he was very interested in boosting VIA. He ultimately wanted to introduce a high-speed service, called VIA Fast (tentatively, I hope), which would have run on upgraded lines. I fear that it would have run into the same problems as the other "cheapo" upgradings done in North America and Britain.

Martin's people, led by Joe Commuzzi who was head of the transport committee, were quite hostile to VIA. There were two phases of the Renaissance of Passenger Rail program. The first phase was about $200 million, and it involved the new P42 locomotives, the new Renaissance cars, the refurbishment of some stations (including Union's new ticket counters), a new station in London, and some track upgradings particularly on the VIA-owned Ottawa-Montreal route. The second $700 million phase was basically going to be more ambitious track upgradings, and was cancelled after Martin came to power as part of his freezing of capital spending pending an expenditure review. A lot of it had to do with the hostility between the Martin and Chretien camps. Collenette was Chretien's closest allies, and attacking what was seen as his pet project was a way of getting back at him.

It's important to note, though, that despite Collenette's passion for rail and his very close relationship with the Prime Minister, he really wasn't able to get that much for passenger rail. Even the full $1 billion program really isn't a particularly big amount considering VIA's chronic underinvestment. It demonstrates quite clearly that, barring a very major government policy position otherwise, things like passenger rail are run by the bureaucrats. Basically, the bureaucrats at Transport Canada aren't particularly interested in growing or shrinking VIA. Any big projects will quickly get shot down by the bureaucrats at Finance. Unless you get an order from the top levels of government for change, like we saw with Mulroney's 50% cut in 1990, not much is going to happen.

Harper's not going to touch VIA with a minority, and there'll be quite a lot of bureaucratic resistance to major change. Conservative private members' bills might give a hint to what their policy would be like if they had a majority. Just about every session, they've introduced a bill to shut down or privatize VIA.

That's very interesting to hear about the Montreal commuter service. I get a bit frustrated with North American systems which insist on endlessly boosting capacity of trains, rather than increasing frequency. There's no freight traffic through the Mount Royal tunnel, so I can't understand why they couldn't up the frequency to every two minutes for the combined lines before they have to go to bi-level mega-trains, especially if they have to buy expensive tailor-made equipment to deal with height restrictions.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

There's no freight traffic through the Mount Royal tunnel, so I can't understand why they couldn't up the frequency to every two minutes for the combined lines before they have to go to bi-level mega-trains, especially if they have to buy expensive tailor-made equipment to deal with height restrictions.

It is the same reason that limits Toronto from expanding rail service right now, CN (and too a lesser extent CP of course).

The problem facing the Deux-Montagne line is that just before it enters Montpellier station (as it is travelling north) there is an at grade crossing with a CN freight line. CN only recently decided that it would not allow anymore commuter trains to cross over its line and demanded the lines be separated with an overpass. You can see in the image below that the Deux-Montagne line is already grade separated from a roadway just before the station so that makes lowering the line impossible (unless they subsequently raised the roadway). That leaves lowering the CN line. But since it is a freight line it means a very low gradient will be required so not only do you have the cost of the overpass, you also have the work required to create the approach at the required grades. Even if AMT rolled over and payed the full amount it would still be a number of years before that project was completed. So in the meantime, since they still need to increase capacity on the line, they are going to buy the Bi-levels.

I also suspect this issue with CN is why they changed their original plans for the Mascouche line since they now have limited slots on the Deux-Montagne line for expansion.

The next problem is with the Blainville line. You can see as of right now it begins at Lucien L'Allier and makes it way around the base of the mountain. Obviously it makes sense to just have this line use the tunnel instead and save 10 - 15 minutes off the length of the trip. But if you look at the image below you can see where the tunnel emerges from the mountain. You can also see the line that the Blainville train currently uses passing right over top. And since the area is fully developed, there is only one way to connect the two lines, another tunnel.

That raises two problems. The first is that since it will have to connect too the existing Mont-Royal tunnel, you run into the situation where you have to also start doing work on that tunnel. So second problem is CN, again. If you look at the image below, which zooms out on the area more, you can see that once it would emerge from the new tunnel it heads straight into a freight yard. This yard actually already causes troubles for the Blainville line. Not all of the trains go all the way to Lucien L'Allier. Roughly half terminate at Parc with the 935 trainbus finishing the trip. So unless you basically build a tunnel all the way past the freight yards with it emerging at Parc (indicated by little transit symbol at the very top) or work out some kind of agreement with CN, they still have restrictions on track space.

So that is the problem they face. I don't want to say it is all CNs fault. But it probably is. AMT has also stopped publishing plans for a new commuter station at McGill that would connect with the Metro. That, the changes to Mascouche line, and the plan to purchase bi-levels all happened right around the same time, which was the same time CN restricted crossings. So until they can solve all those problems, which will amount too modernizing the Mont Royal tunnel, new tunnels, and an overpass (and a new station while they are at it), little else will take place in terms of expansion.

It won't be the last time something like this happens either. The south side of Central Station is an even bigger mess and an even bigger project too undertake. Same is true of Toronto with the Lakeshore and Weston corridors.

Edit: This kind of situation is why I find the proposal for a Dorval - Central Station express service almost amusing. If it was to Lucien L'Allier then it probably wouldn't be all that difficult. But how they plan to have trains running every 20 minutes through the mess of tracks leading into Central Station is what I wonder about. Either they made the proposal without actually looking at the reality of the route, or there is some extensive backroom dealing taking place right now too make it happen.

 

[unimaginative2]

That's very interesting. Now I get the problem: it's all about that CN crossing. Without really being familiar with the situation, I could see it being a hundred-million dollar project, though one that is well-worth it. I would imagine that elevating the Deux Montagnes line above the frieight line would be the best option, since the electrified, all-passenger line could handle far steeper grades. 2% or even 2.5% grades shouldn't be a problem at all. A connecting tunnel from the Blainville line would probably have a similar price tag. They're easily going to be spending $100 million on new tailor-made bi-levels. Wouldn't it be easier to just improve the line instead?

It's ridiculous that a line like that wasn't bought by the transit authority. It has no use for freight. The federal government should have offered it to the AMT (or whoever it was at the time) when they privatized CN.

If they did upgrade the line, is the Edouard Monpetit connection still on the books?

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

They're easily going to be spending $100 million on new tailor-made bi-levels. Wouldn't it be easier to just improve the line instead?

I am not sure of the exact costs of the bi-levels they are purchasing versus more common models, but, there are other systems that use bi-level EMUs with lower heights. Since it is not a full custom order and just one for less common models I don't think the extra cost would be that much.

They had been planning sometime for additional trains on that line so it is an expense that has largely always been part of their current planning term. It is hard too say just how long it will take for AMT and CN to develop an agreement on the grade separation and on better efficiency for the Blainville line. But given CNs usual bitter resistance too passenger rail, seems reasonable to assume that upgrades are not going to be happening in the next few years at least so why not do what you can too deal with capacity in the short term.

It's ridiculous that a line like that wasn't bought by the transit authority. It has no use for freight. The federal government should have offered it to the AMT (or whoever it was at the time) when they privatized CN.

Part of the problem was the common one that faced GO and VIA where during the privatization spree they basically sidelined any concerns or consideration for passenger rail. Another problem is that AMT has only been operating as an agency since 1995. Before that the few commuter lines were either operated MUCUM (precursor to STCUM), CN, or privately owned. So basically before it did much expanding it had to consolidate existing lines under its direction. Once that was done then they were able to start on the expansion programs. So it was not really until around 2000 that there was actually an agency in place and functioning that would have been able to have perhaps better dealt with the early 90's privatization and salvage something for passenger rail (about 10 years too late). Put another way, the problems GO has been facing for last 10 or 15 years with freight companies have only recently started to become a real issue for AMT just because they had so much catching up to do.

Montreal certainly has its share of problems but AMT over the past 12 years has by and large done a respectable job at building something resembling a regional transit network. They are also responsible for overall network co-ordination and fare and zone systems as well as other projects (like the South Shore LRT). I have always said that any regional authority would do well to look at how they are organized and how they have managed to build their network in the past 12 years and I would still say that (especially for the GTTA).

As for the Eduord-Monpetit station it is not something I have seen mentioned in documents since 2000 onward. But that could easily change. There are really only a few projects that are likely to be considered and built in the next 3 - 5 years of which that is not one. But probably around 2010 I would expect a new expansion plan by AMT so it could well appear again as part of a modernization program for that tunnel and line.

Edit: The cost too do all of the work to the Deux-Montagne line crossing, a Blainville line connection and tunnel, Mont Royal tunnel modernizing and a new station or two, and even completing the original alignment of the Mascouche line would work out to be about $900 million - $1 billion, which is not a lot considering the amount of service increase that would provide. It would also put that regional of Montreal and the North Shore in a very strong position in terms of continually adding capacity. Another reason why all that likely won't happen right away is because of the Laval metro extension and all the trouble it has faced. Once they get a south shore project underway to balance things out, then I am sure this plan will really start too take shape.

Edit: I am not sure if this was posted here before but the link below is to the full report (in English at that) for the South Shore LRT.

www.amt.qc.ca/docs/pdf/slr/SLR_Studies_report.pdf

Basically this will be the last large scale transit project that is going to be constructed according to the current expansion plans. It is always hard to tell exactly when projects like this will start but I would not be surprised to see this start by the end of 2007. On page 34 of the report you can see a good map of route the line will take. Page 38 has a picture of the new bridge portion that will be built. Pages 43 - 54 cover the stations in more detail.I really like this project and not just because I have spent so much time on the South Shore and never cared much for the RTL buses (the CIT buses on the other hand are a much more pleasant way too commute).

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

That Montreal LRT plan is interesting, although it is much less exciting than one would initially think:

- the line will run in the median of aut. 10 for the South Shore segment
- the majority of riders (~65%) will come from bus transfers, with car drivers the next biggest group at 14%
- all suburban stations feature large park and ride surface lots
- walk-up riders are lumped in with cyclists, kiss and ride, and commuter rail orgins for a total of 5%

It seems like a BRT would have made a lot more sense in the circumstance given that so many riders are going to suffer an extra transfer. It also seems to be that this line will only encourage more sprawl, as the terminus is designed for easy access from the highway.

What the South Shore really needs is an LRT along the length of Taschereau, and some better land use policies!

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

It seems like a BRT would have made a lot more sense in the circumstance given that so many riders are going to suffer an extra transfer. It also seems to be that this line will only encourage more sprawl, as the terminus is designed for easy access from the highway.

Actually what exists right now is basically a BRT. From Chevrier too Champlain Bridge buses run in a right of way down the center of Autoroute 10. On the bridge they have reserved bus lanes going in the appropriate direction during rush hour periods. The only area where there are no dedicated lanes on the Bonaventure section of the highway and the streets leading to the downtown terminus.

I have no problems with BRT and the system they have has worked fine up until now. But the problem with BRT is the number of buses that end up creating bottlenecks. Ottawa is one example where the downtown portion is one continuous line of buses in rush hour. Same is true for south shore buses where you would need a fairly substantial new terminal to try to be able to deal with more buses.

Probably an even better reason for LRT is the St. Lawrence. Connections across the river are very limited, and new ones are very expensive too build. This project is lucky since the only new section they will have too build is one too cross the basin. Even so you still want to make the most out of the connection. An LRT line will allow far greater capacity than a BRT. And I agree the extra transfer for some is not ideal and hopefully they develop a plan in the near future to deal with that better. But sometimes you have too make trade offs. At least with this LRT line you can extend it, have other lines feed into it, and use it too build a much better transit system in that area in the long term.

 

[Mark Dowling]

For Ottawa-Toronto there's three choices:

1. 431km/h maglev as in Shanghai
2. 320-360km/h using AGV or TGV duplex.
3. Screwing around trying to make a silk purse out of the existing sow's ear.

When Air Canada, Westjet et al go Toronto-Ottawa do they stop in Kingston? No they don't because there's enough traffic not to.

The problem with Collenette was that people like me were suspicious that this was another Bombardier welfare project for stuff like jettrain when what we need is Alstom (with BBD as subcontractor as in France) to build *and operate* the damn thing properly.

A TGV Union-Peterborough-Ottawa would give AC/Westjet/Porter serious concern. A maglev would virtually bury them - I wouldn't bother building a TO-MTL maglev/LGV line though, I'd run MTL-Dorval-OTT-TO which would still be pretty fast MTL-TO until the business case was proven for Lakeshore HSR. I would market it as a separate service "VIArapid" with econ and business fares equivalent to the airline equivalent and staffed by Porter Airlines cabin staff (NOT AC or current VIA) who would probably be finding their current job disappearing. The main problem would be the squealing from Ottawa Airport - they would be less able to fill the decreasing number of regional flights whereas the Toronto and Montreal hubs would still have their longhaul bases.

However, in the meantime there would still be enough demand in the lakeshore corridor to run conventional trains from Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal to Kingston - you're stealing demand from the airlines.

Even then Air Canada operates several daily to both Kingston and London and from an enviro viewpoint this is a disgrace - these could be attacked by fast trains at a much lower cost than the longer Ottawa and Montreal sectors especially if air travel taxes were imposed on flights <300km and a VIA stop was built at Woodbine to shuttle to Pearson.

One of the best developments in Ireland lately has been the introduction of clockface timetabling on the main Dublin-Cork line, which cascades down into tighter connections on regional routes. There are appalling, yawning gaps in VIA's Corridor schedule, especially to Kitchener which has no early WB service for business travel.

 

[unimaginative2]

I completely agree. I do think, though, that a routing through Kingston as opposed to Peterborough is reasonable. The added distance is truly quite minimal, and the additional population served is significant. Clockface scheduling, an extreme of which is in Switzerland after their Bahn 2000 program, would be an immense improvement for VIA.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

The problem with Collenette was that people like me were suspicious that this was another Bombardier welfare project for stuff like jettrain when what we need is Alstom (with BBD as subcontractor as in France) to build *and operate* the damn thing properly.

The problem was true of the Lynx proposal which really seemed to amount to corporate welfare for the consortium of companies behind it. Of course the government will have to make a large investment regardless of who runs and operates the system, but it is pretty reasonable to want the government to be able to profit from a HSR system as well.

The main problem would be the squealing from Ottawa Airport - they would be less able to fill the decreasing number of regional flights whereas the Toronto and Montreal hubs would still have their longhaul bases.

One possible way too deal with this, and I agree it is a concern that should be addressed, is too connect Ottawa Airport into the HSR system (much as Dorval and Pearson would be). It would not be the simplest project since it would involve new routing to, through, and from the airport area, but depending on how an HSR was built to lead into the city, it may not be that much more of an additional expense. If it had an HSR connection at least then there would a greater opportunity of being able bring in passengers from the Montreal or Kingston area who might find with a quick link to Ottawa that flying out of the airport is a good option.

I would market it as a separate service "VIArapid" with econ and business fares equivalent to the airline equivalent and staffed by Porter Airlines cabin staff (NOT AC or current VIA) who would probably be finding their current job disappearing.

I do agree that an HSR service should be separate (to a degree) from VIA Basic services. And I do think that since an HSR line would greatly affect airlines operating on those routes they should be involved to a certain extent. Though I would not flat out choose a single airline over another simply because it is unfair and would most likely lead to the decision being made on personal preference rather than logic.

The best idea I have been able to come up with so far to deal with this would be too auction off ownership in an HSR service. Lets say it was decided that 85% of an HSR service would be public with 15% being made available to private companies. Since airlines are likely to be the only ones really hurt by an HSR line and therefore would have the most interest in being part of it you could say that they are the only private investors allowed too bid (there could be others but for this case I will say it is only airlines that are being included). Then an auction would be held for 3 blocks of shares worth 5% of the total ownership of the service. At that point you could set some ground rules such as no one company could own more than 10%, or that smaller regional airlines would be guaranteed one block of shares no matter what, or whatever other rules were decided upon. Then you let them lose and see who comes out on top.

That is obviously a very general description of the process but when it comes to issues like that there needs to be an element of fairness so that patronage and back room deals are minimized as much as possible.

 

[unimaginative2]

Bombardier is the largest train-maker in the world, and is more than capable of building a real high-speed train. They're heavily involved in both the German and French high-speed trains. The three main manufacturers are all building their own next generation high-speed trains which will likely be what's built in new markets and will probably replace the existing trainsets in Europe. Alstom has its AGV, Siemens its ICE3/Velaro, and Bombardier its Zefiro. They're all more or less equal technologically, though the ICE3 is more proven in revenue operation and the Zefiro uses more proven technology.

Ottawa airport would certainly be hurt by high-speed rail service, but it would still be quite busy. Only the Toronto- and Montreal-Ottawa routes would be really decimated. I doubt other routes would be significantly affected since fares aren't really low enough at Dorval to make the train trip for a flight from there worthwhile.