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EnviroTO said:
Bus loads of university students will show up with people "making a difference" to end "globalization" but will not be able to articulate the exact changes they would want made. They will say they are peaceful demonstrators wanting to have their voice heard. They will say shallow slogans and seek out secured areas and try and breach the perimeter knowing full well the police must keep them out for the safety of those inside and complain of police brutality as if it was some sort of surprise that breaking down a barricade was going to result in force being used.
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I'd say that's pretty much the drill.

Usually a sacrificial McDonald's and a Starbucks will be identified and vandalized by hooded goons - all in the name of ending globalization. Add to that, an occasional guy in a business suit will be screamed at for being a dupe of evil capitalists. One or two protesters will try to provoke police dogs when news cameras around, and then scream about horrible fascists control.

The press will be out in numbers - not to deliver any clarity on the talks - but to cover the potential rioting they so desperately want. Impromptu street interviews will either illustrate that people don't know much about the G-20, don't want to know much, or think they know way more than they actually do. In reality, most other people will be just figuring out how to get around the inevitable traffic snarls.

In the lead up to this event, the Star will have already proclaimed a "crusade" on a related topic to G-20 talks, and then go on to assume a righteous tone when covering the whole affair (while desperately wishing for a riot all the while).
 
I suppose it would be too much to ask for that....

Toronto hosting this didn't turn into a circus populated by middleclass students pretending they're making a difference and thinking they're cool for smashing something.
 
I love how you guys have painted all university students who protest at these events as unknowledgeable, bratty, middle class kids only out to smash things. Any other groups you'd like to label as a whole?

I did my undergraduate degree in Political Science, and I can tell you that I'd put the depth and wealth of ideas and knowledge of my classmates ahead of you and most of the populace. Honestly, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that many of these students eat, drink and sleep politics (I know I did. When was the last time you ran through the pros and cons of a political theory while taking a shower?). Many of the people I went to class with could run circles around anyone in discussions about the G8, G20, the WTO, the effects of globalization and so on. And the fact that these same people are politically engaged shouldn't be held against them. If only more people would be so passionate.

Do these protests help? Who knows. People still remember Seattle, so obviously they have an impact. If some "bratty kids" are able to create lasting images and create awareness, imagine what would happen if average people joined in?
 
jn_12 said:
I did my undergraduate degree in Political Science, and I can tell you that I'd put the depth and wealth of ideas and knowledge of my classmates ahead of you and most of the populace. Honestly, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that many of these students eat, drink and sleep politics (I know I did. When was the last time you ran through the pros and cons of a political theory while taking a shower?). Many of the people I went to class with could run circles around anyone in discussions about the G8, G20, the WTO, the effects of globalization and so on. And the fact that these same people are politically engaged shouldn't be held against them. If only more people would be so passionate?
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You're being naive. These kids aren't the ones dominating protests.

When I was in unversity in Ottawa, Dubya was to roll into town during the early-middle of the Iraq War. There was a huge protest, and I can tell you first-hand that half of my "peers" in attendance were idiots with a shallow understanding of world affairs. There was, however, a sizeable contingent of knowledgeable protestors at the back.

This was at an anti-Bush rally, not a G20. A G20 is not going to bring out the mainstream that an anti-Bush protest would. There will be a lot more hate-the-world anarchists and parroting communists.
 
You should probably re-read my post because I never said they were the ones dominating protests. I was defending against the generalization that EnviroTO, Gristle and Tkip were making. Fact is, many of my peers in my program were incredibly knowledgeable to the point where it was damn near exhausting because we were constantly pushing eachother for more. These are the same people who took buses to Ottawa for the protest you mentioned and Toronto for various events and rallies. So perhaps it's naive to think that everyone who protests is a bratty, unknowledgeable suburban kid who drove to the protest in their dad's SUV.
 
Isn't this occurring during Pride Week as well?

With all the leaders, media, protesters and tourists from Pride Week, Toronto is going to be jam packed that weekend! I hope the city doesn't do something stupid and decide to schedule some DVP or Gardiner summer construction as well that weekend :)

As for the protesters, I think a lot of them are the communist/anarchist types who travel from far and wide just to start crap. I hope they don't trash our city.
 
jn_12 said:
You should probably re-read my post because I never said they were the ones dominating protests. I was defending against the generalization that EnviroTO, Gristle and Tkip were making. Fact is, many of my peers in my program were incredibly knowledgeable to the point where it was damn near exhausting because we were constantly pushing eachother for more. These are the same people who took buses to Ottawa for the protest you mentioned and Toronto for various events and rallies. So perhaps it's naive to think that everyone who protests is a bratty, unknowledgeable suburban kid who drove to the protest in their dad's SUV.
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Fair enough.

It's unfortunate that their efforts are overshadowed by those of stinky white guys with 'dreads.
 
jn_12 said:
Do these protests help? Who knows. People still remember Seattle, so obviously they have an impact. If some "bratty kids" are able to create lasting images and create awareness, imagine what would happen if average people joined in?
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How could the protest possibly help? In order to help you need to be sitting at a table with actual plans. Nobody has a clue what any of these protesters are actually proposing. Why wait for the G20 or other political conference to show up? If 100,000 people hit the street with a message which is clear you don't need the G20 to be there. Attacking what is mostly democratically elected national representatives having a meeting together accomplishes nothing. It is good that nations are working together. In the end trying to get close to highly protected individuals and cause problems seems to be the goal more than the message. If the goal was a message there would be documents, flyers, a website, and no need to try and get near world leaders.
 
The point isn't to provide a clear cut alternative that everyone would rally around and then propose it to national leaders. It simply isn't possible to do that for a variety of very obvious reasons. It's also incredibly obvious why they choose to do this when big media and various world leaders are around. The point is to bring public attention to the agendas of these international organizations and hopefully it causes people to look into the reasons for the protest, thereby creating greater awareness. There are websites and news sites, and all sorts of material out there for people to consume once they're engaged. Just because so far that hasn't been enough to cause real change doesn't mean people should stop doing it.

Also, people protest for those who can't (whether they live in China or they're a Canadian single mother working 2 jobs). In some of these countries (as you pointed out), we're not talking about democratically elected representatives, and even in those that are democratically elected, we're looking at the very definition of plutocratic governance in most cases. We don't live in a truly democratic society, nor are we even close to any sort of democratic model of global governance. So when you take all of these points into account, it's impossible for the "everyman" to be represented at the table when these bodies meet. Because of this, people turn to being heard through their voice and through action rather than being content with what most people would consider the extent of their political options: voting.

If your only concern is about how close these people want to get to world leaders, perhaps ask yourself why they want to get close. It's not to hurt or harm anyone (maybe the odd jerk wants to "stick it to the man" but ignore him like most of the protesters do.). They want to get close to ask tough questions that aren't being asked by our media. I and my classmates had the opportunity to sit with former PM Paul Martin for 2 hours back in 2007. We grilled the hell out of him. People would die for the chance to do that. The sad thing is, people don't have the opportunity to ask the questions that they want to ask to their representatives and that to me is the biggest reason why these protests occur and suggests to me that we have some huge problems in our "democratic system".
 
jn_12 said:
People would die for the chance to do that. The sad thing is, people don't have the opportunity to ask the questions that they want to ask to their representatives and that to me is the biggest reason why these protests occur and suggests to me that we have some huge problems in our "democratic system".
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I have e-mailed politicians and most of the time there is a response. These people trying to get close to the politicians know that a leaders summit is the least likely place at which to get face time with these politicians. The leaders have an agenda and schedule to maintain which is why they are there with their aides in the first place. People who take to the streets with signs rather than fund raising, lobbying, and petitioning aren't going to see as many results. With out the organization (i.e. Amnesty, WWF, etc) there tends not to be measurable results.
 
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jn_12 said:
I love how you guys have painted all university students who protest at these events as unknowledgeable, bratty, middle class kids only out to smash things.
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Having been one of those university kids some time ago, I can vouch for your description: unknowledgeable, bratty, middle class and out to smash things.

Then you reflect a little more deeply, get some more life experience and move on.
 
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