[Prometheus The Supremo]

Virtually all conspiracies are.

Good grief, we're talking about TPS, OPP, and RCMP. What are the chances that they would successfully and secretly co-ordinate a secret, large-scale conspiracy? What are they chances they'd make mistakes? I'll go with the latter.

Besides ... what possible motive would TPS and OPP have for a conspiracy? To cover Harper's ass? Like TPS and OPP care ...

These conspiracy theorists are simply borderline psychotics who don't have a grip on reality. Hence the tin-foil hats.

It's almost as frustrating as the "police can do no wrong" crowd. Uh, yeah ... that's why they keep firing police for screwing up on a regular basis ...

exactly. you might entertain the thought for a few seconds that maybe agent provocateurs might torch cars, smash windows, etc. sometimes simply because it makes an interesting story but when you think about it, reality starts to kick in. also, to believe that every single officer conducted themselves properly and according to the law is just as warped but from another direction.

is it impossible that in a protest with tens of thousands of people that a few or even many will go on a rampage? are there no nut jobs out there that are willing to take advantage of such a situation that the police have to resort to emulation for some greater goal?

how did the events that transpired help the police? the first day, the impression was that the police underperformed, the next day the impression was that they went overboard. this has got to be a PR disaster for them.

if there is a conspiracy, with so many people involved, how can it possibly be kept a secret?

how can anyone say that every single officer acted lawfully and humane? how can one observe every officer at the same time for the whole duration to come to such conclusion?

personally, i don't judge all the protesters as bad nor do i judge all the police as bad because of the actions of some. large groups will attract trouble makers who seek to take advantage of the crowd camouflage and cops are humans who have emotions and might act on them if pushed far enough.

 

[nfitz]

personally, i don't judge all the protesters as bad nor do i judge all the police as bad because of the actions of some. large groups will attract trouble makers who seek to take advantage of the crowd camouflage and cops are humans who have emotions and might act on them if pushed far enough.

Agreed. Most protesters and cops were great. Every officer I encountered that day was courteous, and respectful - even the SQ (who they seemed to be keeping very far from the action, they secured BMO Field for the soccer game ... )

I didn't encounter any protesters ... I had no desire to be close to the action; though I did notice people tweeting about something happening at Avenue and Bloor just about when I was there ... but I didn't see it.

There were a few bad apples in the protesters. The police are pursuing them, and they should do so, and prosecute. And there were a few bad apples within the police, and they should also be dealt with.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

also, i should add that things are not always how they appear. i saw a news report with a cuffed man all bloody and thought the cops beat the crap out of him. i went online after and saw a video with the same man racing his bike deliberately into an abandoned police car and went flying into the windshield. the man's injuries were the result of his own insanity.

what this man's actions had to do with protesting, i have no idea. it's very likely that it wasn't even related to protesting. i think he was just a mentally disturbed person who mustered up the courage to do something illegal and stupid because of the large crowds. regarding some people with psychological issues, when they see the commotion, something goes off in their heads and says "it's the end of the world! go nuts!" i'm sure there were quite a few people with mental issues whose issues were brought out by the situation they were caught up in. that man on the bike certainly didn't look all there to me.

 

[gristle]

Yes I applaud the many peaceful protesters seen and heard in the video imploring the vandals to stop trashing the Police "bait cars" . You can hear them chant over and over "what does this accomplish!"

But it didn't stop the destruction, did it? Among protesters, the peaceful lose to the violent and destructive.

 

[Peepers]

But it didn't stop the destruction, did it? Among protesters, the peaceful lose to the violent and destructive.

Yes the peaceful lost out because the Police were given orders NOT to intervene and stop the relatively small group of vandals. In fact it is reported (see my comment above) that the police stood around and took pictures instead of STOPPING the violence! The police wanted the spectre of police cars on fire which is why they planted them as bait. They knew that this powerful imagery would work to undermine the legitimacy of peaceful protesters and thereby give Police a license to suspend civil liberaties.

vote for CENTRUM TOWER http://bit.ly/cFpK9y[/B

 

[nfitz]

The police wanted the spectre of police cars on fire which is why they planted them as bait. They knew that this powerful imagery would work to undermine the legitimacy of peaceful protesters and thereby give Police a license to suspend civil liberaties.

That's completely and absolutely absurd.

Stop posting this stuff. If you actually thinks it's true, please seek medical help now, before you jump off of something and hurt yourself.

 

[tkip]

That's completely and absolutely absurd.

Stop posting this stuff. If you actually thinks it's true, please seek medical help now, before you jump off of something and hurt yourself.

I second that nfitz. This is beyond absurd and besides having a shred of evidence to back it up, doesn't make sense.

This is simply one person's quest to get others to buy into their delusional fantasy that conspiracies are everywhere and ignores what more than likely is probably a case of poor management of events, especially large scale ones. You bring together thousands of people, with multiple departments and layers of policticans and agencies and what do you expect?

I could tell you the same types of stories of what I've seen behind the scenes at my hospital for example, regarding coordination between departments and confused, chaotic outcomes where no one is really certain what happened. It's very common.

 

[gristle]

Yes the peaceful lost out because the Police were given orders NOT to intervene and stop the relatively small group of vandals. In fact it is reported (see my comment above) that the police stood around and took pictures instead of STOPPING the violence!

In earlier posts, I've indicated why the police response took the time it did. It is also funny (and very telling) that you complain about a lack of police response to the results of a direct and violent attack on police officers.

No one else in the crowd stopped the violence, either. The reason for this is that they very likely feared violence from those committing these acts. They felt helpless. That's not a good thing for people to feel in their own community. And I can tell you that there were dozens of people photographing these events. It was all a spectacle for them to watch public order falling apart.

Here's the deal Peepers, if those people smashing and burning the cars (along with the windows and other property of businesses, banks, etc) can't figure out that they are doing something very wrong, threatening the public good and putting others at risk, then they don't belong on the streets. These individuals hijacked the entire weekend. They got lots of news time. They got publicity and the resulting cheap orgasm of self-adulation and pretensions of having done something "important." All the spouting of empty platitudes and smashing up of city streets hardly offers up a more inviting "alternative" world. That you refuse to see their actions as a threat to the public is rather amazing. If these individuals can't conduct themselves civilly and express themselves reasonably, then they are a threat to those who wish to maintain public order for the good of everyone else.

 

[TO City of Light]

All these conspiracy theorists are just plain nuts. Yes, I know that the RCMP used provocateurs against the FLQ during the sixties and seventies, as well as during the Vietnam anti-war protests at the same time. And yes, in the USA at that time the military and FBI were running agents inside the peace movement, and in the civil rights movement at an earlier time.

But that was all in the past. Police forces, particularly those under such tight control and scrutiny as those in Canada, don't do things like that anymore.

All I know is I would hate trying to explain the expenditure of a billion dollars on security if nothing had happened. Now we see how the cost was fully justified to prevent the thugs and anarchists from attacking our leaders.

Thank god we were able to keep the damage limited to a couple of police cars and a few shops. Money well spent say I.

(In case it is unclear, the entire message above was intended as heavy sarcasm)​

.

 

[Asterix]

Yes the peaceful lost out because the Police were given orders NOT to intervene and stop the relatively small group of vandals. In fact it is reported (see my comment above) that the police stood around and took pictures instead of STOPPING the violence! The police wanted the spectre of police cars on fire which is why they planted them as bait. They knew that this powerful imagery would work to undermine the legitimacy of peaceful protesters and thereby give Police a license to suspend civil liberaties.

So when the news release states that most of the photos were submitted by citizens, that means "the police stood around and took pictures"? Sure, probably in your world.

I note you have also completely ignored the previous questions attempting to get you to comprehend the magnitude of the 'conspiracy' required for this whole concept of 'bait' cars being used. It takes a lot more than some secret cabal of high ranking officers.

The mindlessness you insist on showing pushing this theory is astounding. Instead of much more obvious explanations, you choose instead to believe that dozens of police officers of all ranks and from multiple organizations secretly planned to cause riots. While having the brains to manage to keep any suggestion of such actions from leaking to the media or anyone else in the public, they still make stupid slip-ups like outfitting their secret agent with high-end police gear from their special stash.

Short of them parading this guy in front of the cameras tarred and feathered after a night in custody, is there anything that anyone, whether the police or rational people on this forum, can say that might lead you to accept that this guy is far more likely to be your average well-to-do moron who gets his jolllies sticking it to the man than to be an undercover agent brought in from overseas with the specific plan to give law enforcement cause to detain for a few hours a couple hundred individuals illegal gathering in the middle of a public thoroughfare?

Occam's razor.

 

[buildup]

Not so fast with the "teaching moment" comments. The final chapter of this saga has yet to be written. What I find very telling is the fact that it took Police three weeks to release his picture and they only did so in the face of growing suspicion about this guy. They really had no choice, the cat was out of the bag! In the press release the investigator made a point of saying that he was not a cop. As I have explained earlier, Arc'teryx man did not have to be a cop in order to be an agent provocateur. He could have been recruited by the police by various methods. What if for example he was recruited by an under cover cop posing as a black block orgnanizer and provided the financial and logistical support to carry out his actions? Police admit that they had infiltrated these groups. For what purpose? SIZE][/B

Ok, Peepers I'm starting to think you're just parodying actual conspiracy nuts. But in case you are not, let me try another angle -how many conspiracy theories do you typically juggle? There's research I've seen that about 6% of the population typically buys into a conspiracy theory. Interestingly, its the same 6% of people regardless of the particular theory. Are you prominent in the 9/11 conspiracy thread? That's why NASA gave up trying to prove the lunar (fake) landing wasn't a 10,000 person conspiracy.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Iran blasts Canada for G20 arrests. See this link for the story.

Canada will take no lectures on human rights from a country that stones its citizens to death.

That is Ottawa's response to Iran's criticism of the treatment of protesters by police at the G20 summit in Toronto.

Tehran called in Canada's charge d'affairs on Wednesday to remind him of Canada's international commitments to allow peaceful demonstrations, according to Iran's state Press TV.

The story, posted on the network's website, contains the headline "Iran slams Canada over G20 brutality."

The diplomatic salvo, which appears to be retaliation for Canada's repeated criticism of Iran's human rights record, did not sit well with Ottawa.

"Canada will take no lectures on human rights from Iran," Melissa Lantsman, a Foreign Affairs spokeswoman told The Canadian Press in an email.

"Canada has a system which affords all citizens due process of the law. This is something that Zahra Kazemi was never afforded."

Kazemi was an Iranian-Canadian photojournalist who was beaten to death in 2003 after being arrested for photographing relatives of detainees outside the infamous Evin prison in Tehran. The Montreal woman was never formally charged with any crime.

Lantsman said Canada continues to have serious concerns about Iran’s "egregious human rights abuses", including the violent crackdown following its disputed June 12, 2009 presidential election.

Iranian-Canadian journalist Maziar Bahari was among scores of political activists and other figures detained during the protests.

The Newsweek reporter spent nearly four months in jail but was released on a $300,000 bail and allowed to leave the country last October.

The world outcry over the death sentence by stoning for an Iranian woman convicted of adultery has become the latest issue in Iran's fraught relationship with the international community.

Stoning was widely imposed in Iran in the years following the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Amnesty International's 2010 human rights audit cites Iran for rape and torture in prison, violations of freedom of expression, discrimination against women, and inhuman punishment such as flogging, "judicial amputation" and a Supreme Court ruling that upheld a court sentence that called for acid to be dropped in the eyes of a man who had blinded a woman.

The Iranian embassy in Ottawa did not immediately have comment.

Iran? Now we know where the protesters get they support from.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

that's like nazi germany criticizing the americans for having racist policies against blacks. 'cause you know, those nazis were such champions of diversity and inclusiveness (well, maybe in their methods of killing innocent people).

 

[Second_in_pie]

So you have to have the moral high ground in everything to call someone out on something they did wrong?

It's perfectly legitimate for Iran to be talking about what we did wrong. But it's also perfectly legitimate for us to criticize Iran on half of it's policies. What would you prefer? If Canada and Iran both admitted our mistakes and worked to solve our problems, or for both of us to deny everything and not improve in our social policies?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

So you have to have the moral high ground in everything to call someone out on something they did wrong?

It's perfectly legitimate for Iran to be talking about what we did wrong. But it's also perfectly legitimate for us to criticize Iran on half of it's policies. What would you prefer? If Canada and Iran both admitted our mistakes and worked to solve our problems, or for both of us to deny everything and not improve in our social policies?

you can call someone out if you want but if you're trying to portray yourself as morally superior in the process (which is probably the agenda) when you have clearly done worse, it looks kinda stupid.