Napoleon
Active Member
Very much agreed. I like to think I live within some reasonable definition of downtown (almost at Ossington and Dundas), but there are basically no nearby stops. Let's fix in the city before fixing out of the city.
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- Thread starter rp07
- Start date
LNahid2000
Senior Member
See above. That's already the plan.
muller877
Senior Member
Great that there is a long term vision. What I am worried about is that they are not delivering on the first phase before actively looking at future phases. They should be nailing down locations, vendors, pricing, etc. If they have time to talk with people from outside of the GTA they better have all of this lined up...unless they think they can get economies of scale by partnering on purchases.
If it about expansion even before Toronto is rolled out are they lining themselves to be another Montreal and bankruptcy. Walk before you run is always a good mantra for a business of this type.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
In a sense I've often thought that Toronto was bike friendly, or perhaps bike biased, in the sense that cyclists do not in practice need to follow the sames rules of the road as motorists. For example, I daily see cyclists rolling past open streetcar doors - and I don't mean dangerously roaring through, but slowing down and passing carefully through the throng embarking or disembarking the streetcar. Also, I often see bikes rolling through stop signs and red lights, riding on the sidewalk, using pedestrian crossings while seated, etc. I have never seen a police issue a ticket in such cases. IMO, the city seems to have come to a consensus that as long as cyclists are not recklessly breaking the rules, they can do what they want.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
It seems like a disproportionate number of bicyclists riding downtown this year are delivery people for a food delivery company called "Foodora".
I read about a cyclist who got a ticket for sidewalk riding just the other day. As both a cyclist and a pedestrian , I would like to see more of that.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Build the appropriate infrastructure and cyclists will stop recklessly breaking the rules.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I'm not suggesting they are in the most part recklessly breaking the rules. Did you read my post before you quoted it?
My perception is that most cyclists are if anything carefully, and with deliberate consideration, breaking the rules. Cyclists roll through open streetcars and the occasional flashing school bus, roll through red lights, rarely stop at stop signs, make right turns when not allowed on red signals, almost never use hand signals, use pedestrian signals and crossings without walking their bikes, and a whole host of other infractions. All for the most part done well, where no one gets injured or killed, and very rarely are police issuing tickets. THIS is what I mean by Toronto IS bike friendly, as the cyclists among us break almost all the rules all in the pursuit of maintaining momentum, and rarely does anyone else get injured or sufficiently care that the police get involved.
Some cyclists do this. Some of us obey the rules. Some drivers also roll through stop signs, Rush red lights, drive past open streetcar doors and a whole host of other infractions.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
True, but if car drivers broke the rules as often as I saw cyclists, especially about driving on sidewalks, using pedestrian crossings, rolling through red lights, well, I'd like to think TPS would quickly be arresting folks for dangerous driving. Since this doesn't in the large part happen to cyclists who do the same, I'd say the city has come to a consensus that provided it's not done recklessly, such behaviour is for the most part permissible. This makes sense as a car on the sidewalk will kill dozens, while the sidewalk or red light running cyclist rarely kills anyone, besides themselves.
In this respect, I'd argue Toronto is friendly to cyclists, as it gives massive leeway on highway traffic act enforcement.
Not allowed...
Mostly okay...
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nfitz
Superstar
All true, but I think the frequency varies. I've seen bikes try and cut through a streetcar door when there are already people climbing in and out, far more often than cars.
And I've seen bikes blow through red lights downtown without even slowing down, with pedestrians on the crossing, far more often that I've ever seen cars (I'm not sure I've ever seen a car do that one).
And yet in general, I see more cars than bikes - so shouldn't I be seeing more car infractions than bike infractions?
typezed
Active Member
Something I read years ago that has always stayed with me: the criminal activity of poor people is more apparent than that of the more well-off because the life of poor people is lived on the streets and on front stoops while others can conceal their, say drug habits for example, behind doors and gates. A bike on the road travels slower, its rider is exposed, and relative to driving cycling is considered by many to be an outsider unconventional way of getting around. Their ways are more noticeable to the judgemental in the drivers seat who need to work around them. Every car on the street is travelling ten to twenty kilometres over the speed limit, I see cellphones being used behind the wheel all the time, yellow lights are pushed, everyone creeps around the corner before stopping at a sign. Where's the enforcement on that? Outside the core and everywhere in the province, establishments that serve alcohol have parking lots. All the time in the news cars are taking out front porches, sides of houses, front windows of coffee shops, bus shelters, pedestrians, Spadina wave decks. Someone drove over Signal Hill in Newfoundland yesterday. So common are such incidents that when a car kills a pedestrian in the morning its old news for CP24 by mid-afternoon. We just had a mayor who was known to drive while inebriated and a privileged son of a billionaire who killed three children. Enforcement? Sure there are people who do idiot things on bicycles. Good thing they're on a bicycle, I say, for they can do less damage. They'd be just as much an idiot in a car. Probably more, because they can travel fast and are hidden behind the windshield in their little bubble of comfort.
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ADRM
Senior Member
Frankly, I think it's nuts to suggest that Toronto is in any way friendly to cyclists. Off the top of my head there are, what, fewer than 10 streets with protected cycle lanes in the city? That's insane. Sharrows or green paint simply do not constitute adequate cycling infrastructure and the city is littered with them. The cost-benefit of promoting cycle use and constructing adequate and proper infrastructure to support it is overwhelmingly positive in favour of cycling, and the reality is that Toronto lags massively behind leading cities in that regard.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
It not nuts, IMO. Toronto is friendly to cyclists in that we have far higher tolerance of official infractions. How can you say Toronto is not friendly to cyclists when they get to use the roads, sidewalks and pedestrian crossings in overt disregard of the official rules? IMO, I'm fine with this, and I think the rules should be changed to match how bikes are actually being used, thus making the city even friendlier to cyclists. For a start, let's have an expanded version of the Idaho Stop, so that cyclists can legally roll through red traffic lights, open streetcars, flashing school buses and stop signs, instead treating all these as yields instead of hard stops. Sidewalk cycling could be permitted as long as certain speeds are exceeded, indeed, our sidewalks are used by sprinters and runners who travel at cycle speeds now.