[MisterF]

Bike lanes save lives - absolutely. but if the bike lane triples congestion ,reducing economic output - is it worth it for the added safety for a handful of cyclists? that's a moral decision we as society have to make. It's not a professional liability for an engineer like signing off on the structural design of a bridge may be.

This isn't the choice we're facing though. Bike lanes improve economic output and their effect on car traffic is negligible at most. So the choice is:
-remove bike lanes and get the same amount of congestion, worse economic output and worse safety
-keep bike lanes and get the same amount of congestion, better economic output and better safety.

Removing bike lanes from individual streets will reduce congestion on those streets; at least in theory.

A negligible difference at most and often no difference at all. And that's only for car traffic, which should be the lowest priority mode of transportation in a city.

Every time the installation of a bike lane is researched, they invariably conclude that commutes/trips will increase in time by some amount.

No, sometimes travel times have been reduced.

Roads have been static for 40+ years, meanwhile the city has grown very much over that same time period.

Removing traffic lanes in favour of bike lanes does not make sense in this context.

You're implying that a growing city should have an increasing number of vehicle lanes. This is completely wrong. Cars are an extremely inefficient use of space and car dependence is a net drain on a city's finances. A growing city needs an increasing about of mass transit, cycling infrastructure, and pedestrian space. Not more car lanes.

 

[nfitz]

And GASP - they even have extensive bike lanes on major arterial roads.

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www.la-bike.org

That said, the road widths in LA in the older areas are massive; and the lanes seem much wider too. And so many lanes. Bike lane installation easily, would be an unintended benefit.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You mean neighbours like the Bloor Annex BIA?

This is clearly a BIA that supports the bike lanes. That’s one. What of the other BIAs along the bike lanes? I’m a big fan and user of our bikes lanes, but you can’t just pick those who share our views.

What I’d like to see Mayor Chow do is ask the Premier for a year’s grace to reduce automobile congestion without removing the bike lanes. This will be achieved through the following….

1. Reduce or eliminate construction-related lane closures.
2. Sequence traffic signals to expedite rush hour flow
3. Enact hardcore traffic enforcement to reduce block boxing and illegal parking/standing (consider to deputize citizenry with ticket bounty). Commercial trucks, shredding trucks, etc. seized for auction.
4. Cancel all in-lane patios or other dine TO blockage. Nothing goes in the roadspace.
5. Better control of signalized right turns so that pedestrians and cars flow better.
6. Reduce or eliminate left turns unless there’s a dedicated left turn lane, especially on streetcar routes.
7. As much as possible roadworks or utility work to be undertaken at night or weekends. Every roadwork project to be measured against its impact on congestion and how it can be avoided.
8. Expand hours for no parking during rush hour from 3pm to 7pm, along with hardcore enforcement #3.

We’d need the Premier to agree to support much of this both financially and legislatively.

 

[TheGrimSweeper]

Agree with all except #4.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Agree with all except #4.

You get dedicated, curb-separated bike lanes for public use, or private businesses occupying roadspace for their patios. You can’t have both.

 

[afransen]

This is clearly a BIA that supports the bike lanes. That’s one. What of the other BIAs along the bike lanes? I’m a big fan and user of our bikes lanes, but you can’t just pick those who share our views.

What I’d like to see Mayor Chow do is ask the Premier for a year’s grace to reduce automobile congestion without removing the bike lanes. This will be achieved through the following….

1. Reduce or eliminate construction-related lane closures.
2. Sequence traffic signals to expedite rush hour flow
3. Enact hardcore traffic enforcement to reduce block boxing and illegal parking/standing (consider to deputize citizenry with ticket bounty). Commercial trucks, shredding trucks, etc. seized for auction.
4. Cancel all in-lane patios or other dine TO blockage. Nothing goes in the roadspace.
5. Better control of signalized right turns so that pedestrians and cars flow better.
6. Reduce or eliminate left turns unless there’s a dedicated left turn lane, especially on streetcar routes.
7. As much as possible roadworks or utility work to be undertaken at night or weekends. Every roadwork project to be measured against its impact on congestion and how it can be avoided.
8. Expand hours for no parking during rush hour from 3pm to 7pm, along with hardcore enforcement #3.

We’d need the Premier to agree to support much of this both financially and legislatively.

I think you are under the misapprehension that the Province expects bike lane removal to have any effect on congestion. The only point of the policy is to 1) be seen to be doing something, that sticks it to enemies of their base and 2) draw attention away from 212's actual purpose to advance highway 413.

I fail to see how anything you describe helps with the province's actual aims.

 

[nfitz]

You get dedicated, curb-separated bike lanes for public use, or private restaurants occupying roadspace for their patios. You can’t have both.

And yet we do. On roads with bike lanes, car lanes, and an intermittent parking lane, a patio currently is on a few parking spots. We don't need to preserve parking spots that desperately.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I fail to see how anything you describe helps with the province's actual aims.

From your POV, I agree. I assume 413 is a given, but that’s not our fight. If the people of Mississauga, Brampton, Bolton, Vaughan, etc. don’t want a new highway in their region they can vote against it….but with the exception of Humber River - Black Creek, those are hardcore PC ridings. Doug can do no wrong in the suburbs. As for Toronto, if we believe that it’s a fait accompli that bikes lanes are finished, then there’s no point in contesting it - I’m not there yet.

 

[innsertnamehere]

This isn't the choice we're facing though. Bike lanes improve economic output and their effect on car traffic is negligible at most. So the choice is:
-remove bike lanes and get the same amount of congestion, worse economic output and worse safety
-keep bike lanes and get the same amount of congestion, better economic output and better safety.

A negligible difference at most and often no difference at all. And that's only for car traffic, which should be the lowest priority mode of transportation in a city.

No, sometimes travel times have been reduced.

You're implying that a growing city should have an increasing number of vehicle lanes. This is completely wrong. Cars are an extremely inefficient use of space and car dependence is a net drain on a city's finances. A growing city needs an increasing about of mass transit, cycling infrastructure, and pedestrian space. Not more car lanes.

you say this as an absolute truth - but we know it's not. it's a gradient.

For example - say we took a lane off of rural Highway 10 between Brampton and Orangeville and replaced it with bike lanes. Do you think it's impact would be negligible and would overall improve economic output?

Obviously not. Nobody will be cycling from Orangeville to Brampton.

The example is a bit facetious, obviously - but there are degrees in between. On one end you have projects like Richmond-Adelaide and the waterfront trail extension across downtown - clear, unambiguous net positive lanes with heavy cyclist use and minimal impact on traffic. and the other, you have theoretical projects like the one I describe which would be laughably ridiculous and clearly not beneficial - but there are a million degrees in between. Bike lanes are not always absolutely beneficial. How many people on the road are making trips under 5km? how many destinations are available in cycling distance? employment opportunities? Is a lot of the traffic commercial vehicles or personal vehicles?

If you can add bike lanes without taking out existing capacity - it's always a win. But when you don't have that space, it needs a closer look of benefits vs. impacts.

For example - Bloor through central Toronto, while technically 4 lanes before the lanes, was mostly operating as a 2-lane street anyway given the huge number of parked cars and illegal stopping occuring. Converting it to a 2-lane road with bike lanes had a very minimal capacity impact for vehicles but provided a safe cyclist space in an area where it's easy to make trips by cycling with shopping, employment, and everything else within 5km for most residents. A win-win.

Further west though, into Bloor West Village - employment is more dispersed. Car volumes are much higher, and the road actually operates with 4 lanes of capacity at all times. It's harder to cycle places as more destinations are simply outside of cycling distance. The lanes effectively cut throughput capacity by 50% by removing a lane, but don't offer a viable alternative for many types of trips that locals make. Maybe it doesn't work out as well.

It's a weighted decision that has to be made - and is far from a universal one.

 

[evandyk]

I think once things settle in, the bike lanes through Bloor West Village will be as well-used and loved as the ones through the Annex. They're still very new.

And the Bloor bridge is the only way to cross the river in that vicinity, so there should absolutely be bike lanes across the bridge. Cyclists should be able to access west of the Humber safely.

I am totally ok with canceling patios from street lanes. I did it once or twice the first year during covid, but I never saw the appeal of sitting in the street to eat with cars passing a few feet away.

 

[TheGrimSweeper]

The above is what the Professional Society of Engineers was hammering home on, that different municipalities have different needs and stripping the rights of those municipalities to be in charge of their own decisions is a massive overreach and sets everyone back.

Bike lanes downtown Toronto make total sense, even when it takes a lane. There definitely is a certain level of density needed for them to be very useful.
Bike lanes in the suburbs less so and I get that.

In terms of patios in the street - I feel like if Toronto actually had some proper pedestrian streets spread out across the city that would be a better way. But I do appreciate the patios and do see a number of them heavily used.
I find their usage is heavily dependent on how much effort the restaurant puts into them. One's that are done up far nicer and seem more private tend to be used way more.

Side note that I personally feel Ossington should be turned into a pedestrian street all summer long or at least every single weekend.

 

[Frankietls]

I live in Bloor West area and started bike -commuting since the bike lanes were installed. From what I see the choke point is mostly in the morning at Bloor and South Kingsway where the majority of drivers want to turn right into South Kingsway from the West but the dedicated right turn lane isn't long enough so traffic backs up all the way to Old Mill.
Is it feasible to turn the North side bike lane into bi-directional (it's wide enough IMO) from South Kingsway to Royal York and convert the South side bike lane back to a regular vehicle lane ?
I also read that mayor Chow has met with the opponents of the bike lane in the area and they are considering remove the median on this stretch. If these could be done to keep the bike lanes it would be the compromise I'm happy to take.

 

[TheGrimSweeper]

I live in Bloor West area and started bike -commuting since the bike lanes were installed. From what I see the choke point is mostly in the morning at Bloor and South Kingsway where the majority of drivers want to turn right into South Kingsway from the West but the dedicated right turn lane isn't long enough so traffic backs up all the way to Old Mill.
Is it feasible to turn the North side bike lane into bi-directional (it's wide enough IMO) from South Kingsway to Royal York and convert the South side bike lane back to a regular vehicle lane ?
I also read that mayor Chow has met with the opponents of the bike lane in the area and they are considering remove the median on this stretch. If these could be done to keep the bike lanes it would be the compromise I'm happy to take.

Olivia's approach is the proper way. Address people's concerns from both sides and meet them halfway.

That sounds like a reasonable approach.

 

[Northern Light]

I live in Bloor West area and started bike -commuting since the bike lanes were installed. From what I see the choke point is mostly in the morning at Bloor and South Kingsway where the majority of drivers want to turn right into South Kingsway from the West but the dedicated right turn lane isn't long enough so traffic backs up all the way to Old Mill.
Is it feasible to turn the North side bike lane into bi-directional (it's wide enough IMO) from South Kingsway to Royal York and convert the South side bike lane back to a regular vehicle lane ?

Keeping in mind that I don't work for the City, and this is back of the napkin math............. but yes, I believe that is workable.

The knock on that would obviously be that cyclists going EB from west of Old Mill would have to shift over, then shift back in/around Jane.

Still, the math looks like it works to me. The actual intersection w/S. Kingsway and again at Jane has some risks for hiccups, I would need more time to look at those.

 

[txlseries4]

The Trillium and Toronto Today:

Leaked draft briefing for Doug Ford's cabinet warned bike lane changes could worsen congestion​

Some excerpts:

A draft of a briefing document prepared for Premier Doug Ford's cabinet highlighted research showing prohibiting bike lanes doesn’t solve traffic congestion and, instead, often has the opposite effect.

“This initiative may not reduce congestion as most research (e.g. New York, Washington, Vancouver) suggests reducing road capacity by introducing bike lanes can encourage biking and discourage car use, alleviating congestion,” reads an internal government document created in the summer.

The briefing document outlines “high risk level” issues with the proposed legislation, including potential negative reactions from municipalities, environmentalists and cyclists.

“The province may be seen as encroaching on municipal decision-making authority," the document reads, adding there is a "risk of jeopardizing progress made through the Toronto and Ottawa New Deals."

The document also warned the bike lane law could undermine other provincial housing and transportation efforts.

“This initiative may run counter to other provincial initiatives (such as Transit Oriented Communities, FMLM [First-Mile Last-Mile], Cargo E-Bikes, E-Scooter, and safe active transportation and support to local businesses),” the document reads.

The document suggests the province will likely need to spend more money or hire more people to review requests.
It warns the province doesn’t currently have access to municipal cycling and local traffic data and won’t be able to independently verify data sent by cities as part of an exemption request.