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roe_ said:
While arguing this might be a classic exercise in internet futility, I have to point out the flaw in your logic: a covenant isn't about protecting your own property rights; you already have the right to decide what you build on your lot. It’s about stripping those rights away from the next owner. You aren’t controlling your property, you’re attempting to control someone else’s future. Furthermore, because a covenant can’t be removed without the consent of every beneficiary, it is the definition of neighbours dictating to neighbours. Zoning and covenants may share similar results, but only one of them is a democratic tool that evolves with the city. The other is just a permanent legal shackle on a property you no longer own.
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There is much less difference between zoning restrictions and a RC than you are prepared to accept. As just one example, on “my lot” I cannot construct a warehouse, I cannot construct a 12 story residential building, I cannot construct a school, a car dealership or a welding shop etc. etc. etc. Those restrictions mean I don’t actually have the right to decide what to build on my property. Even though I did not agree to put any or all of those restrictions in place, I still need to abide by them and I accepted that when I purchased the lot. That was my choice and if I wanted to do any of those restricted things I was free to pursue them in a location that permitted them. The same thing applies to someone who might purchase the lot when I decide to sell. The benefits of this arrangement are not just to me but to my neighbours as well and it is fitting that they should be able to rely on them after I sell and not solely as long as I choose not to sell and that applies whether they are imposed by zoning or by an RC.
 
I appreciate the thoughtful points being shared in this discussion.

I do prefer the idea of moving to less exclusionary zoning overall where people do have more mixed use options with their property. I think that is a more sustainable way to build a city.

While a typical lot may not be suitable for a school, a daycare could be. So could an office space, physio office, coffee shop and more. And mixed density - preferrably with some appropriate design standards, as well.

I enjoyed living near and walking past some of the old homes in Wihkwentowin that had various uses in them and living on a street that less than half a block away had multiple restaurants, a church and more. I get that is not everyone's preference, but I would argue, again, that it's a more sustainable and healthy way to build a city overall.
 
All restrictions are exclusionary by definition, the main difference here seems to be whether they are made by a government or someone else.

Unfortunately, it could be some of those nice old homes that may be most at threat in the current development free for all.
 
Cluster housing. 150st and 90ave.

😒

Rise needs to go bankrupt. So much of their stuff is trash.

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kcantor said:
There is much less difference between zoning restrictions and a RC than you are prepared to accept. As just one example, on “my lot” I cannot construct a warehouse, I cannot construct a 12 story residential building, I cannot construct a school, a car dealership or a welding shop etc. etc. etc. Those restrictions mean I don’t actually have the right to decide what to build on my property. Even though I did not agree to put any or all of those restrictions in place, I still need to abide by them and I accepted that when I purchased the lot. That was my choice and if I wanted to do any of those restricted things I was free to pursue them in a location that permitted them. The same thing applies to someone who might purchase the lot when I decide to sell. The benefits of this arrangement are not just to me but to my neighbours as well and it is fitting that they should be able to rely on them after I sell and not solely as long as I choose not to sell and that applies whether they are imposed by zoning or by an RC.
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At the end of the day, we can agree to disagree on the philosophy, but the market usually settles these debates anyway. Even if covenants remain a tool for some, they are ultimately self-defeating for two reasons:

First, they actively reduce property value; most owners aren't incentivized to place a permanent legal shackle on their land that limits its future potential. Second, it is highly unlikely that any modern neighbourhood will ever achieve the 100% buy-in required to truly control an area. Instead of a pristine 'elite' enclave, you simply end up with a messy patchwork of rules that fails to achieve your objective while making the neighbourhood a nightmare to navigate legally.

If you’re okay with your property rights being frozen in amber, that’s up to you, but the rest of the city is moving towards a more flexible and functional path.
 
^^

While you are correct in saying that the market will usually settle these debates, I’m not sure the market will - or even should - perform the way you predict.

Firstly, I’m not convinced that RC’s necessarily result in lower property values and if they did I would think anyone supporting “more affordable housing stock” would support that rather than oppose it.

Secondly, I’m not sure you need “100% buy-in and complete control over an entire modern neighborhood” for RC’s to be effective. You only need enough contiguous lots on any given street within any neighborhood for them to be effective in preserving the character and makeup of those streets.

Thirdly, your “messy patchwork of rules” is not really any different or any more problematic if it incorporates some RC’s than what we already have with our zoning bylaws that provide exemptions or different rules for TOD sites or historically designated buildings or direct control sites or even temporary parking lots for that matter.

Lastly, as for my property rights being potentially “frozen in amber” and potentially its value along with that (although the market as you noted will determine if that or the opposite of that actually takes place in the future) there are some things that are more important in life and life styles than others and I’m perfectly okay with that.
 
kcantor said:
^^

While you are correct in saying that the market will usually settle these debates, I’m not sure the market will - or even should - perform the way you predict.

Firstly, I’m not convinced that RC’s necessarily result in lower property values and if they did I would think anyone supporting “more affordable housing stock” would support that rather than oppose it.

Secondly, I’m not sure you need “100% buy-in and complete control over an entire modern neighborhood” for RC’s to be effective. You only need enough contiguous lots on any given street within any neighborhood for them to be effective in preserving the character and makeup of those streets.

Thirdly, your “messy patchwork of rules” is not really any different or any more problematic if it incorporates some RC’s than what we already have with our zoning bylaws that provide exemptions or different rules for TOD sites or historically designated buildings or direct control sites or even temporary parking lots for that matter.

Lastly, as for my property rights being potentially “frozen in amber” and potentially its value along with that (although the market as you noted will determine if that or the opposite of that actually takes place in the future) there are some things that are more important in life and life styles than others and I’m perfectly okay with that.
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Yes, there is some contradiction in the discussion here. I agree they are exclusionary, so interestingly you tend to see them in areas where housing prices are higher not lower and they tend to maintain not reduce those values.
 
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