micheal_can
Senior Member
Just because you can rebuild them, that does not mean you should. Case in point is the stainless steel cars that are in dire need of replacement. They should have been removed from regular service decades ago.
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- Thread starter Urban Sky
- Start date
drum118
Superstar
With the the environmental changes taking place, anything older than 30 years will be gone in the decade or sooner. California is pushing to have them remove sooner than later with big push by the Railroads at all levels.
Short lines will be hit the hardest since most line only have old power in the first place. Did see a few with new power that were only a few old with one getting new power delivery to them.
On my travels this summer, I saw 40-60 years old locomotives working the yards, doing local servers and on the mainline.
nfitz
Superstar
The way politics is going in North America, I see rules getting looser, not tighter.
Sure, stuff get's old, but I don't think environment is going to make much impact. Would would make a difference is some technology change - like when diesel became a lot cheaper than coal. If batteries get a lot cheaper than diesel, that would do it. (if ... I don't know if that will happen in the next few decades or not)
drum118
Superstar
With Trump in office now, one can see him not been tight on the environment to the point he has already start some of that or in the process of doing so. It going to take about 2 decades or more to go green for some RR using different technologies as they can afford it, while others will still get the second had currently in service from those RR.
While the world RR move to the green fleet and stringing electric overhead on line currently using diesel, NA will remain behind the times like they have been for the last 50 years, other than run longer freight trains with very little passenger service, let alone transit.
nfitz
Superstar
It's not financially feasible to electrify trans-continental freight lines with overhead. The only way it happens with batteries; preferably those that can be swapped out for pre-charges ones very quickly at a way station; similar to how the currently treat diesel for engines, and historically (even more frequently) stopped for water and coal for steam engines.
If that process became cheaper than diesel - than it may happen quickly. Otherwise, it could take a very long time. Who knows that other cheap alternate technologies there would be.
Supertrain anyone?
Bojaxs
Active Member
Anyone who thinks Class 1 freight companies are going to electrify their entire network must be joking. Imagine how much more difficult it would be to deal with a derail with all the overhead cables and catenaries.It's not financially feasible to electrify trans-continental freight lines with overhead. The only way it happens with batteries; preferably those that can be swapped out for pre-charges ones very quickly at a way station; similar to how the currently treat diesel for engines, and historically (even more frequently) stopped for water and coal for steam engines.
If that process became cheaper than diesel - than it may happen quickly. Otherwise, it could take a very long time. Who knows that other cheap alternate technologies there would be.
Supertrain anyone?
Contrary to popular belief among N.A. urbanists, countries like the U.K. still use a lot of diesel locos to move freight. Electricity rates are often very expensive, and it's cheaper to move freight by diesel. If electricity rates are too high in the E.U., then shippers will opt to move their goods by truck rather than rail. Even countries like Germany are struggling with this.
DB Cargo pulls the plug as energy costs signal red for electrified rail freight - The Loadstar
DB Cargo has withdrawn electric trains over escalating energy costs, but it is expected to be a permanent move.
theloadstar.com
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Sure, but that's cheap and stupid and we should be embarrassed at how far Canada has fallen when it comes to railways.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
The modal share of rail freight begs to differ. It’s amazing what we have achieved with basically no taxpayer involvement. As I keep saying: we get what we pay for (a rail network which works great for those who actually pay for it: freight railroads and their shippers)…
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Isn't every freight train electric? AIUI, it's how the electricity for the motors is provided that's up for discussion.
roger1818
Senior Member
It's not financially feasible to electrify trans-continental freight lines with overhead. The only way it happens with batteries; preferably those that can be swapped out for pre-charges ones very quickly at a way station; similar to how the currently treat diesel for engines, and historically (even more frequently) stopped for water and coal for steam engines.
If that process became cheaper than diesel - than it may happen quickly. Otherwise, it could take a very long time. Who knows that other cheap alternate technologies there would be.
Supertrain anyone?
I'm quite bearish when it comes to using batteries as a prime mover for long haul freight unless we can see significant gains in the energy density of batteries (energy per unit volume). Even with battery swap, getting a large enough battery to haul a mile long freight train a reasonable distance between battery swaps will be a challenge. There are special use cases, where there is enough of an elevation difference between the origin and destination of the cargo which allows gravity to do most of the work, but those are the exception, not the rule.
Batteries will be useful in hybrid consists to allow regenerative braking to increase fuel efficiency, to meet peak power requirements (allowing the diesel engines to be tuned to always run in their most efficient range) and to keep air brakes charged, when the locomotive engine would otherwise need to idle.
Contrary to popular belief among N.A. urbanists, countries like the U.K. still use a lot of diesel locos to move freight. Electricity rates are often very expensive, and it's cheaper to move freight by diesel. If electricity rates are too high in the E.U., then shippers will opt to move their goods by truck rather than rail. Even countries like Germany are struggling with this.
DB Cargo pulls the plug as energy costs signal red for electrified rail freight - The Loadstar
DB Cargo has withdrawn electric trains over escalating energy costs, but it is expected to be a permanent move.
Of course one has to remember that most of Europe (including the UK) have significantly higher electricity prices than we do in North America. The big exception to that is Norway, which is blessed with massive amounts of Hydro Electric power.
Electricity price by country 2023 | Statista
The cheapest electricity prices in the world could be found in Iran in 2023, whereas the cost of electricity per kwh was highest in Europe.
www.statista.com
That chart doesn't show Canada, but here is one (in CAD) for all of the provinces and territories. I find it very telling how we are getting all these ads out of Alberta complaining about how cleaning up the electricity gid will result in higher prices, when they have among the highest electricity prices and the dirtiest grid in the country.
Electricity rates by province Canada 2023 | Statista
The most expensive electricity in Canada was in the northern provinces and territories. The electricity rates oscillated between 41 and 7.8 Canadian cents/kWh.
www.statista.com
CER – Provincial and Territorial Energy Profiles – Canada
Provincial and Territorial Energy Profiles – Canada
I could see the railways electrifying their mainlines in southern Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick, where electricity is cheap, and sticking with diesel in the rest of the country.
micheal_can
Senior Member
The $50 million in the 1870s was not nothing.
The purchasing of the Grand Trunk and building CN up was not nothing.
Bojaxs
Active Member
If you consider "diesel-electric" to be electric, then yes. In that case, the entire GO network has already been electrified.
Bojaxs
Active Member
"Embarrassed". How about we stop caring what other countries think about us? We'll do what works for us. Being the second largest country in the world with a population of only 40 million poses unique challenges that these other countries don't have to deal with. It's not as if people in Europe or Japan think less of us simply because we still run diesel trains. All that matters is that our infrastructure is in a state of good repair and everything is running smoothly and timely.
Canada doesn't need to spend billions on "vanity projects" just to impress other countries.
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ProjectEnd
Superstar
I'm pretty confident "Europe or Japan" don't think about us at all. And our trackbed is consistently some of the worst in the developed world. WTF is a 'vanity project'?
roger1818
Senior Member
Is Europe similarly "Embarrassed" because rail represents such a small minority of their freight transport?
Note Maritime is different from Inland waterway.
