[Admiral Beez]

I'm staying with friends this week in Garmish-Partenkirchen Germany. Today we visited Innsbruck, Austria. Some of my observations on transportation as follows:

Speed limits - most dual lanes highways do not havin speed limits in Germany. Instead they enforce laws bases on road behaviour. Passing on the right, going slow on the left, tailgating, high beam flashing, aggressive driving, etc will all get you a ticket, but go as fast as you want. My drive from Munich to Garmisch was avg 130 kph and that was in the right lane. On rural single lane roads the speed limit outside of towns is generally 100 kph. In Ontario the lmit on these same roads would be 60 kph, perhaps 80 only when straight. On the Austrian roads today the speed limit was 130 kph on single lane roads. I see no reason the 407 and other highways in Ontario need a 100 Kph limit.

Stick shift - I learned how to drive stick last week before I flew here. Now I just love it. On windy and hilly roads like today in the Austrian alps, stick shift is the way to go.

Roundabouts and yield signs work - You don't need a traffic light or stop sign at every intersection. I'm driving around some of the busiest streets and traffic flows well here.

Driver training - Germans and austrians drive like I wish all Canadians did. These guys know what they're doing.

Steetcars and cars can live together - today in Innsbruck, Austria I saw long streetcars running down the sides of the streets, with cars up the middle. Seems to flow nicely. By the way, Innsbruck is very pretty.

Next week we drive through Salzburg to Venice italy. Also planning drive to nuremburg and thereabouts. I will have further observations on traffic and transportation soon.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Also, my rental car is diesel. All cars should be diesel, burns a lot more gas, yet still meets strict eu emissions requirements.

 

[reaperexpress]

On rural single lane roads the speed limit outside of towns is generally 100 kph. In Ontario the lmit on these same roads would be 60 kph, perhaps 80 only when straight. On the Austrian roads today the speed limit was 130 kph on single lane roads. I see no reason the 407 and other highways in Ontario need a 100 Kph limit.

The defaut speed for rural roads in Ontario is 80km/h, not 60km/h. Although they are straight for the most part, I don't think it's really safe to go any faster because of the low visibility on the frequent hills.

I'm currently in Texas, and the speed limits here on rural roads is ridiculous. I was driving on a two lane at-grade road with a speed limit of 70mph (113km/h). I can't believe they allow cars to comfortably travel at over 120km/h on a road controlled by stop signs. BTW, the speed limit on freeways is usually about 60mph-70mph, which seems reasonable.

Also, my rental car is diesel. All cars should be diesel, burns a lot more gas, yet still meets strict eu emissions requirements.

Actually, diesel cars tend to use less fuel than a gasoline equivalent. I think diesel becomes less effective in cold weather, but that is being rapidly improved, so they are becoming far more competitive now. I expect we will see diesel cars becoming more popular.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Whoops, I meant To say that diesels burn a lot less gas.

 

[MisterF]

The defaut speed for rural roads in Ontario is 80km/h, not 60km/h. Although they are straight for the most part, I don't think it's really safe to go any faster because of the low visibility on the frequent hills.

Sure it is. When it comes to 2-lane country roads, most of the world has hillier, curvier, narrower roads than us and their speed limits are higher. You don't even have to go to Europe to see that, just go to the Laurentians in Quebec. We have some of the highest road design standards in the world (a typical country road has a design speed of 100 km/h or more) with some of the lowest speed limits. No wonder we all drive 20-30 over the limit. Maybe not in the GTA but as you get a couple hours from the city people routinely go 110 in 80 zones.

As for driver training, I think some of it is because of the roads. We're pampered here, where even county roads have generous lanes, full shoulders, and large building setbacks. People think they take up more room than they do, while a European driver will go through a narrow space with ease. They're much more aware because they have to be.

 

[Electrify]

I don't know if we should get rid of ALL speed limits, but between cities they should be much higher. There are stretches of the 407 in off-peak times where one could floor it, but are held back by the 100km/h speed limit and the 20km/h "grace zone." In a sports car, one could drive parts of that highway at 200km/h, possibly 300km/h, and still be safe. While these numbers sound outrageous, such speeds are common in Germany.

(Speaking of which, Admiral you've only driven at 130km/h? Giving the opportunity to drive in Germany, in the right circumstances, I'd redline my vehicle at maximum speed to see what it could do... )

Realistically though, Between cities the speed limit should be between 120km/h to 130km/h. In urban areas, the speed limit could be as low as 90km/h such as in the 401 collector lanes, to as high as 120km/h on open straightaways like the 400 and 404.

 

[gweed123]

I don't know if we should get rid of ALL speed limits, but between cities they should be much higher. There are stretches of the 407 in off-peak times where one could floor it, but are held back by the 100km/h speed limit and the 20km/h "grace zone." In a sports car, one could drive parts of that highway at 200km/h, possibly 300km/h, and still be safe. While these numbers sound outrageous, such speeds are common in Germany.

(Speaking of which, Admiral you've only driven at 130km/h? Giving the opportunity to drive in Germany, in the right circumstances, I'd redline my vehicle at maximum speed to see what it could do... )

Realistically though, Between cities the speed limit should be between 120km/h to 130km/h. In urban areas, the speed limit could be as low as 90km/h such as in the 401 collector lanes, to as high as 120km/h on open straightaways like the 400 and 404.

I've been toying around with the idea of increasing the speed limit on the rural sections of the 401 to 130 km/h. I think the 401 would be a good pilot project for it, with it being expanded to other rural 400 series highways if it's proven to be a success (same or only marginal increase in accidents, same or increase in number and $ amount of fines handed out, etc).

However, to make it politically palatable, I was thinking of installing electronic speed monitoring as part of it. Install 'advisory signs' like we see on the 401 through Toronto, and have 407-style license plate readers on them. Place them every 30 km or so apart. Going 130, it should take you around 13-14 minutes to travel between those two points. If it takes you under 13 (i.e. 140 km/h or above), the address attached to your license plate gets sent a speeding ticket. Increase fines to deter radical speeders.

An alternative would be to have a speed limit of 130 km/h on all 6 lane sections of the 401, and 120 km/h on all 4 lane sections (as the risk of intermingling with trucks would be greater on a 4 lane than a 6 lane).

EDIT: One more thing that these electronic signs would allow you to do is to set the speed limit based on weather conditions. The speed limit on a clear sunny summer day should not be the same as the speed limit when there is a risk of ice on the road. In cases like that, I would fully support the speed limit on the 401 being dropped to 90 km/h or even 80. There have been a few times where I have been driving the 401 in pretty crappy conditions, and I'm doing 80, with someone flying by me doing 100. He's technically doing the speed limit, but under the weather conditions, it's still definitely dangerous driving.

 

[Admiral Beez]

(Speaking of which, Admiral you've only driven at 130km/h? Giving the opportunity to drive in Germany, in the right circumstances, I'd redline my vehicle at maximum speed to see what it could

130 kph was my avg speed on the first day, which includes busy traffic, my top speed was at least 160. Today we drive on more open roads and I'll be zooming.

 

[Electrify]

Nice! The fastest I've ever driven is about 160 (100mph), and that is for very brief moments on open highways with virtually no traffic. Even in that environment, going faster than that just doesn't feel safe.

 

[Towered]

Many years ago while driving back to Toronto from Hamilton, I hit 200 kph. I sustained that for about 5 seconds before losing my nerve and returning to the usual 115 - 120 kph cruising speed...

 

[Mapleson]

Actually, diesel cars tend to use less fuel than a gasoline equivalent. I think diesel becomes less effective in cold weather, but that is being rapidly improved, so they are becoming far more competitive now. I expect we will see diesel cars becoming more popular.

Diesel's have issues starting in the cold (which have been countered in modern vehicles with heat traces), but they aren't less effective. However, if all cars/trucks converted to diesel, we'd see much higher fuel costs.

Realistically though, Between cities the speed limit should be between 120km/h to 130km/h. In urban areas, the speed limit could be as low as 90km/h such as in the 401 collector lanes, to as high as 120km/h on open straightaways like the 400 and 404.

I'm in favour of raising the speed limits by 20 km and eliminate the "grace" zone.

However, to make it politically palatable, I was thinking of installing electronic speed monitoring as part of it. Install 'advisory signs' like we see on the 401 through Toronto, and have 407-style license plate readers on them. Place them every 30 km or so apart. Going 130, it should take you around 13-14 minutes to travel between those two points. If it takes you under 13 (i.e. 140 km/h or above), the address attached to your license plate gets sent a speeding ticket. Increase fines to deter radical speeders.

I worked with these quite a bit in the UK for temporary road works and they are the most effective behaviour modification tool out there. We the 'old-fashioned' spot check speed cameras, we would have 100-1000 speeders a day, but with the 'average speed' cameras, the numbers dropped into single digits to a few dozen.

However, instead of putting one every 30km, you need only put one on every exit to the 401/407 and track people's average speed over their whole trip.

EDIT: One more thing that these electronic signs would allow you to do is to set the speed limit based on weather conditions. The speed limit on a clear sunny summer day should not be the same as the speed limit when there is a risk of ice on the road. In cases like that, I would fully support the speed limit on the 401 being dropped to 90 km/h or even 80. There have been a few times where I have been driving the 401 in pretty crappy conditions, and I'm doing 80, with someone flying by me doing 100. He's technically doing the speed limit, but under the weather conditions, it's still definitely dangerous driving.

They have variable speed limits on the M25 around London and the M5 around Birmingham. They slow traffic down approaching an accident so that the tailback will clear faster. We could drop the 401 to 30 kph during rush hour smooth out the crawl and floor-in sections.

 

[gweed123]

I worked with these quite a bit in the UK for temporary road works and they are the most effective behaviour modification tool out there. We the 'old-fashioned' spot check speed cameras, we would have 100-1000 speeders a day, but with the 'average speed' cameras, the numbers dropped into single digits to a few dozen.

However, instead of putting one every 30km, you need only put one on every exit to the 401/407 and track people's average speed over their whole trip.

That's a good point. It would probably be easier to catch the license plate too. However, if there was an accident or something on the highway between the start and end point (especially if it was a really long trip), they could speed and the average time would still be below what is allowed. By separating it into ~30km increments, you would be more likely to catch a speeder than if you took the average speed of the entire trip.

They have variable speed limits on the M25 around London and the M5 around Birmingham. They slow traffic down approaching an accident so that the tailback will clear faster. We could drop the 401 to 30 kph during rush hour smooth out the crawl and floor-in sections.

Interesting idea. I hadn't thought of using it for congestion control, I was thinking of it mainly from a safety perspective with respect to weather and road conditions. Interesting application though.

 

[Mapleson]

That's a good point. It would probably be easier to catch the license plate too. However, if there was an accident or something on the highway between the start and end point (especially if it was a really long trip), they could speed and the average time would still be below what is allowed. By separating it into ~30km increments, you would be more likely to catch a speeder than if you took the average speed of the entire trip.

I'd support segment cameras as well. With 817km of Hwy 401, that's just 28 locations (~170 cameras) plus 172 exits (~345 cameras). We were installing "low cost CCTV" systems for £100k, so you could probably install all the needed cameras for $50 million, then just need the IT struture to handle it.

Interesting idea. I hadn't thought of using it for congestion control, I was thinking of it mainly from a safety perspective with respect to weather and road conditions. Interesting application though.

Aye, the benefits are numerous from safety to environmental, from journey time reliability to increased capacity.

The BBC has lots of articles about both ASC and VSL.

"On the M25, where the system has been in place since 1995, it has helped to make the motorway safer by reducing the frequency of collisions by 10% and by encouraging drivers to keep within the speed limits to provide smoother, more reliable journeys during peak times.

"An overall reduction in emissions of between 2% and 8% has been recorded on the M25."

 

[gweed123]

I'd support segment cameras as well. With 817km of Hwy 401, that's just 28 locations (~170 cameras) plus 172 exits (~345 cameras). We were installing "low cost CCTV" systems for £100k, so you could probably install all the needed cameras for $50 million, then just need the IT struture to handle it.

Assuming an average fine of about $300, that would mean a bit over 160,000 fines to pay for it. Assuming 50 fines a day (pretty conservative estimate over the entire length of the highway), it would take just over 9 years for the project to pay for itself strictly in fines.

Aye, the benefits are numerous from safety to environmental, from journey time reliability to increased capacity.

The BBC has lots of articles about both ASC and VSL.

"On the M25, where the system has been in place since 1995, it has helped to make the motorway safer by reducing the frequency of collisions by 10% and by encouraging drivers to keep within the speed limits to provide smoother, more reliable journeys during peak times.

"An overall reduction in emissions of between 2% and 8% has been recorded on the M25."

Great post. I would love to see this implemented on the 401, or even just the 3+ lane portions of the 401 (Cobourg to London) as a 1 year pilot project. I would assume it would be successful, and then could be expanded to other 400 series highways.

 

[Electrify]

I wouldn't mind seeing different speed limits for different lanes. Example: 100 in the right, 110 in the middle, and 120 for the left lane.

Another idea would to use the orange speed signs, which represent recommended speeds, with the standard speed limit signs. So the orange sign would say 100 recommended, while the white sign would say 120 maximum.