[Archivist]

Re: We should be doing more to attract these tourists within a day's drive. This is a valid point and I would agree. I think we are likely to come out well in the coming tourism depression, whereas places like Newfoundland and Patagonia will suffer quite badly.

Re: Amalgamation. Not the root of all our problems, but certainly it hasn't helped. It also helps if you recall that at approximately this time many changes were made to taxation in Ontario that weren't strictly speaking related to amalgamation (Education taxes lifted off the municipalities, and provincial support for transit dropped onto municipalities entirely, plus the beginning of Market-Value Assessment).

If you prefer, we often use "Harris" as a shortcut term for everything that is wrong in Ontario in 2008. It works.

 

[Tewder]

I had a closer look into this sitaution:

Our tourism numbers have been going up for a while now - in 2006 we had about 10million overnight + 10million day visits ... and revenue has been going up as well. I know 2007 was even higher ...

I just had a look at Chicago and I was shocked they peeked in 2000 and have been going down since then - in 2006 their numbers were around 11 million overall! that's it!!!

Good points but it may be helpful to dig a little deeper into the stats...

As has been mentioned here before Toronto is a city of immigrants where pretty close to one in two people here are foreign born, compared to about only 18% in Chicago. A lot of people visiting the GTA come to visit family and may not actually be here on the 'tourist trail'. Aside from a day trip to the CN Tower and the Eaton Centre, most will likely have a stronger interest in visiting the Falls.

Also, although Chicago is a regional centre for the midwest, Toronto is both a regional centre (for Ontario/the GTA) as well as a national financial/commercial capital. This would indicate that a greater percentage of the international and domestic visitors who come to Toronto are here to conduct business or attend conventions, rather than to tour. While here, many will no doubt check out a site or two (again, the CN Tower?) or a restaurant or two, but those who have substantial free time would again likely be more inclined to want to make the treck to Niagara.

All of this is to say that although Chicago may actually only show a surplus over Toronto of a million or so visitors, it is very likely that the percentage of actual 'tourists', in the traditional sense of the word, is likely far higher there.

I am not making this point to be 'negative', but only to be realistic. The positive side of this though is the realization that if Toronto were to improve the percentage of real 'tourists' than the overall number of visitors (including business, family and otherwise) would soar.

 

[taal]

But according to figures I saw Chicago's numbers were a lot lower then ours .. forget a surplus.

Also I was comparing the overnight rate which seemed to be about 10billion Vs 5 in our favour ... I can't find that stats anymore and they were a pain to get in the first place so if anyone has them or knows where to find them let me know.

Also the one day visits were even more skewed i.e. a lot more for Toronto.

Regarding your point I'd agree with you for the most part. One thing though I also compared the revenue generated by tourism spending and Toronto was still a lot higher! Although not high enough to reflect the number of tourists (the difference that is) and I think this is where your point comes into play.

 

[TO City of Light]

I was a pretty regular NYC to Toronto AC weekend round-tripper for the last 3 or 4 years, i.e. New York to Toronto once every tree or four weeks. Did this winter and summer.

I can honestly say, with three exceptions noted below, the number of "true" tourists that I saw over this period could almost be counted on the fingers of one hand. And yes, I can spot the difference between a tourist and a student returning home, a couple coming to visit friends and relatives, business people, athletes and entertainers, Canadian escorts visiting home, etc. At the Toronto airport departing US pax are actually quite easy to spot because of US immigration pre-clearance where citizens of US are in a different line from the Canadians.

The three exceptions to this rule are Caribana, Gay Pride and the Film Festival when there is something to do in Toronto. But these are a bit like visiting friends and relatives for most attendees.

Let's face it, there is nothing in Toronto that would motivate anyone to fly up from New York, even using air miles, for a weekend. I'm afraid the same would apply to any other US city with direct air connections to
Toronto.

The bus tours from Cleveland will still come but for someone in a higher spending category - forget it. And once you've once done the bus tour/drive up with the family bit, why come again?

And, I'm afraid this will not change even if we are all positive, positive about Toronto, no bashing, no negativity in the newspapers, etc.

 

[Tewder]

But according to figures I saw Chicago's numbers were a lot lower then ours .. forget a surplus.

oops, well i'm just basing the number on your first post. I may be misunderstanding but I thought you reported 11 million visitors to Chicago vs 10 million to Toronto:

"...in 2006 we had about 10million overnight + 10million day visits [...]
I just had a look at Chicago...in 2006 their numbers were around 11 million overall! that's it!!!"

Also I was comparing the overnight rate which seemed to be about 10billion Vs 5 in our favour ...

Also the one day visits were even more skewed i.e. a lot more for Toronto.

Yes, I think this makes sense. Given what is likely a higher percentage of business and family travel to Toronto it stands to reason that day trips would be higher, assuming that tourists are likely going to spend more than a day/night if choosing to make Toronto the place for their vacation or 'get-away'.

I don't think anyone would deny that Chicago is a bigger tourist destination. It has greater international recognition that helps to draw people. The 'Windy City' also draws a lot of domestic tourists (who are in addition to overnight business travelers), whereas the ROC comes off as somewhat complacent about, if not downright hostile to, Toronto in comparison.

 

[Tewder]

I can honestly say, with three exceptions noted below, the number of "true" tourists that I saw over this period could almost be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Although Toronto does seem to be doing better in attracting the bus tour crowd from Asia or Europe etc, it is true that these groups are only passing through Toronto as part of a bigger 'grand tour' so to speak that likely includes Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Niagara Falls and maybe even some US cities.

The three exceptions to this rule are Caribana, Gay Pride and the Film Festival when there is something to do in Toronto. But these are a bit like visiting friends and relatives for most attendees.

I would disagree in that I would say that these *are* legitimate Toronto tourist successes because people are coming to Toronto solely and specifically to experience unique Toronto events. Pride and film festivals may exist elsewhere but Toronto's versions of them are well known and well reputed.

Let's face it, there is nothing in Toronto that would motivate anyone to fly up from New York, even using air miles, for a weekend. I'm afraid the same would apply to any other US city with direct air connections to Toronto.

I would disagree again. Toronto is a vibrant and interesting city with a lot to experience, and it definately has its own flavour. This isn't the issue. To me the issues are as follows:

1. The condition of the city which has been allowed to languish, with a growing somewhat negative reputation being attached to this.

2. The lack of a major 'wow' attraction/event to draw people, or recognizable history or identity or 'vibe' . Toronto does have some yearly events that are well-known and well-attended, but they are fairly short lasting. Most cities have similar events, as well as museums and art galleries, theatre and nightlife, or tourist traps etc., to one degree or another, and Toronto certainly has these things too, but when planning a vacation or 'get-away' there is undeniably a perception of value-added to the tourist experience when visiting a place that is famous for something, or has gorgeous geography or well-known history, or that boasts a site or major international event that is perceived as being important or worthwhile to see or experience. In other words, people go to Vancouver because of the renown of its mountains and ocean and its cool 'west coast' outdoorsy vibe. People go to Montreal because it is unique as a French language/culture metropolis in North America. San Francisco? L.A.? Chicago? New Orleans? Boston? NYC? ..., these major tourist cities all have some combination of all the above.

3. Poor marketing of Toronto and poor image-recognition in general, whether overseas or throughout Canada. You can have the best city in the world but if nobody knows about it, or worse still if nobody 'cares' to know about it, then there wont be a lot of people wanting to come.

4. The high US dollar and customs issues. Can't do anything about these but my sense is that if points (1), (2) and (3) above were improved then this point would not be such an issue.

 

[taal]

I was a pretty regular NYC to Toronto AC weekend round-tripper for the last 3 or 4 years, i.e. New York to Toronto once every tree or four weeks. Did this winter and summer.

I can honestly say, with three exceptions noted below, the number of "true" tourists that I saw over this period could almost be counted on the fingers of one hand. And yes, I can spot the difference between a tourist and a student returning home, a couple coming to visit friends and relatives, business people, athletes and entertainers, Canadian escorts visiting home, etc. At the Toronto airport departing US pax are actually quite easy to spot because of US immigration pre-clearance where citizens of US are in a different line from the Canadians.

The three exceptions to this rule are Caribana, Gay Pride and the Film Festival when there is something to do in Toronto. But these are a bit like visiting friends and relatives for most attendees.

Let's face it, there is nothing in Toronto that would motivate anyone to fly up from New York, even using air miles, for a weekend. I'm afraid the same would apply to any other US city with direct air connections to
Toronto.

The bus tours from Cleveland will still come but for someone in a higher spending category - forget it. And once you've once done the bus tour/drive up with the family bit, why come again?

And, I'm afraid this will not change even if we are all positive, positive about Toronto, no bashing, no negativity in the newspapers, etc.

Using that logic where will someone from NYC decide to travel to in North America?

 

[Mustapha]

I was just reading CanadianNational's post in the thread about the bus terminal again:

http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?t=9035

and the booklet he posts IMHO shows that the list of sights that might have tempted out grandparents really hasn't changed that much for today's visitor. Everything is really spread out.

Others in this post have mentioned better transportation - to the Metro Zoo, for example. I got a chuckle out of this car friendly advice from the Metro Zoo's website:

"""Getting to the Zoo by Public Transit: The TTC does provide service directly to the zoo, but which bus is heading there changes depending on the day of the week and the time of year. ( )Use the TTC's online schedules to see if you need to catch the 86A Scarborough East bus from Kennedy Station or the 85A or B Sheppard East from Sheppard Station.
Getting to the Zoo by Car: Driving to the Toronto Zoo is fairly straightforward.( ) Take Highway 401 to the east side of Toronto and exit at Meadowvale Road. Head north on Meadowvale, and the signs will take you right into the parking lot. Parking costs $8.00 per vehicle, which you pay on the way out.""""

 

[taal]

I don't think anyone would deny that Chicago is a bigger tourist destination. It has greater international recognition that helps to draw people. The 'Windy City' also draws a lot of domestic tourists (who are in addition to overnight business travelers), whereas the ROC comes off as somewhat complacent about, if not downright hostile to, Toronto in comparison.

I'd like to see that Chicago is indeed a bigger tourist destination ... it sounds true but is it?

To make it fair we need to see how much $$ is spent during the visit, It doesn't matter if they are true tourist or not, if they are spending just as much $$.

 

[Tewder]

To make it fair we need to see how much $$ is spent during the visit, It doesn't matter if they are true tourist or not, if they are spending just as much $$.

I think your initial impulse to question the numbers is correct, an understanding or breakdown of the stats is important and does matter, in terms of understanding the reasons why people are coming to Toronto (or not) and what we can or cannot do about it. As already mentioned Toronto does well in the business and family travel sectors but could do better in attracting the 'pure' tourist who comes here soley and specifically just to come here. This to me seems to be the real way to improve the numbers overall (assuming we don't fall behind in the other categories at the same time).

 

[TO City of Light]

Using that logic where will someone from NYC decide to travel to in North America?

A good point.

NYC itself is one of the few places in North America where many people will go not because they want to see/do something special but because they want to have a New York experience. The first time certainly will be for the sights - of which there are many, but from then on for many it is a chance to be in New York, catch a show, walk in Central Park, do some shopping, have a good meal, etc.

This is similar to the European weekend getaway. Londoners don't go a second time to Prague, Barcelona, Tallinn, etc. (mainly) because of architecture, museums, WOW sites, etc. They go because it can be a lot of fun to have a weekend in these places, i.e. a lifestyle break.

There are, of course, a few places like that in North America and by my logic, yes, New Yorkers do go there - New Orleans, South Beach, Montreal. Otherwise, it is event driven - film festivals (Sundance, Toronto), Ring Cycle (Toronto), Frida Kahlo exhibit in Philadelphia (the current hottie), etc.

The point I was trying to make, maybe poorly, is that Toronto now is an event driven place and should recognize this. Toronto can probably, and no doubt did, entice visitors here through advertising, curiosity, etc. To have a major tourist economy in a city, you need the returns.

And, by the way, air fares for the weekend getaways in Europe and USA are quite cheap - but that's another thread.






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[Glen]

jn_12,

All excellent and commendable ideas!

 

[Tewder]

NYC itself is one of the few places in North America where many people will go not because they want to see/do something special but because they want to have a New York experience. The first time certainly will be for the sights - of which there are many, but from then on for many it is a chance to be in New York, catch a show, walk in Central Park, do some shopping, have a good meal, etc.

On the one hand I agree that the perception of being able to have a particular 'experience' in a place can be a big draw for tourists, and this goes over and above the mere catalog of tourist sights. On the other hand I do not think this is unique to New York. If you think of Seattle, Vancouver, San Francisco, Boston, Montreal, New Orleans, Quebec City, Chicago, Las Vegas and so on you will likely have an anticipation of enjoying experiences and/or a vibe that goes beyond merely touring sights or attending events.

This is similar to the European weekend getaway. Londoners don't go a second time to Prague, Barcelona, Tallinn, etc. (mainly) because of architecture, museums, WOW sites, etc. They go because it can be a lot of fun to have a weekend in these places, i.e. a lifestyle break.

Not necessarily. I have family in London who travel all over Europe and abroad enjoying both the experiences but also the sights on offer. A Londoner in Paris may be just as interested in visiting Versailles, the Louvre or the Centre Pompidou as a New Yorker or a Torontonian would be. I agree that your second or third visit to a place may be less about touring sights but that would generally true regardless of the city.

The point I was trying to make, maybe poorly, is that Toronto now is an event driven place and should recognize this.

This is restrictive, not to mention counter-intuitive to what you have been saying all along, that one of the reasons people go to New York, for example, is simply because it's 'New York' (shopping, dining, arts etc). Toronto is a big and vibrant city, by any standards, and regardless of any other considerations this is and will increasingly become one of its major poles of attraction, in terms of the critical mass of arts and culture that are available here. This is how a 'vibe' develops, and then it really just becomes about the transmitting of that vibe (marketing, word of mouth, the growing reach of Toronto artistic/creative output). Besides, my gut feeling is that the word is already out there, to a certain degree. As just one example, the gay demographic/travel industy has long been aware of the breadth and depth of tolerance in the city, and the wealth of open experience available here. In the America of George W. Bush this has been well-noted south of the border. As another example, there has also been a slowly growing recognition of an arts and culture scene in Toronto, notably with indy music, theatre and film, design and visual arts. None of these things may have captured the imagination of 'Joe six-pack' yet, but then again 'Joe' is not likely to be travelling to experience a 'vibe' anyway...

As I've posted before what Toronto does need to improve on is the condition and appearance of the city, and the revitalization and integration of its tourist resources. Toronto needs to raise its bar. It really also needs to resolve its identity 'angst', embrace its past/history and celebrate its tolerance and diversity. It is the marriage of these things that will likely illuminate the unique identity that already exists here... a new major 'wow' attraction or major international event would also be the cherry on the cake.

 

[TO City of Light]

Toronto as a desirable hot spot in its own right or an event driven destination?

What you say is all true. But both aspects are related and it is the balance that decides what the best approach would be to attracting more people back for a second, third, etc. visit.

My point is a simple one - Toronto had better focus on the event visitor or numbers of foreign visitors will continue to decline in the foreseeable future.

For the sake of argument, let's say that next September the CN Tower, the ROM and AGO - excepting their theatres, Kensington Market, old and new city hall, the Toronto Island and waterfront are all closed for renovation. How many foreign visitors would cancel their bookings for the TIFF? How about all?

But let's try the inverse. Next September, all of these Toronto star attractions are open but the TIFF decides to liquidate and close shop. How many of those who made their bookings for the now defunct Festival would continue and visit Toronto. How about none?

How many of those folks from far away lands who attended the Toronto Grand Prix race in previous summers will be here this summer to sample the delights of the city. I suspect a very small proportion.

Yes all these folks are in Toronto because it is Toronto and has a well serviced airport, plenty of hotel rooms, easy to move around, etc. But without the "event" - cancel the bookings.

It's about having a city and events - the balance.

Tewder, you are consistently one of the best posters on this site - well thought out and intelligent positions. I am therefore disappointed to see you revert to the "I have family" approach, as in I have family in New York who have been to Toronto once and will never come again. Shame.


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[Tewder]

Toronto as a desirable hot spot in its own right or an event driven destination?

What you say is all true. But both aspects are related and it is the balance that decides what the best approach would be to attracting more people back for a second, third, etc. visit.

Absolutely. I think 'both' are important, and all the more so that high-profile events drawing big crowds are an excellent opportunity to 'impress' and market the city, thereby increasing the likelihood that visitors will come back and spread the word. The sad thing, according to the stats at least, is that people are coming here for such events but are not necessarily being 'blown away' now by what Toronto has on offer. This is why I think we need to improve some of the other things I mentioned.

For the sake of argument, let's say that next September the CN Tower, the ROM and AGO - excepting their theatres, Kensington Market, old and new city hall, the Toronto Island and waterfront are all closed for renovation. How many foreign visitors would cancel their bookings for the TIFF? How about all?

But let's try the inverse. Next September, all of these Toronto star attractions are open but the TIFF decides to liquidate and close shop. How many of those who made their bookings for the now defunct Festival would continue and visit Toronto. How about none?

Interesting point, and I don't disagree. However , your point underlines the tourist situation as it is, but not as it could be if other improvements were made. In other words, as an example, though people may initially have started going to Niagara on the Lake for the Shaw Festival it was the discovered perception of everything else on offer there (or the potential of it in the early days) that helps to draw them back. Similarly, if a film fan from Ohio comes to the TIFF and has a fantastic time in the city because there is a beautiful waterfront, great museums and galleries, lots of restaurants and shopping, exciting nightlife, and interesting things to do and see then it is far more likely that they may come back again at a time other than the film festival or that they will spread the word to friends and family back home.

Pride and the TIFF are truly the jewels in the crown of Toronto's annual tourist schedule, but there is definately room for one or two more. Luminato certainly has potential and is a good fit for the city as an arts destination, and a major winter event tied around the holidays could be a good showcase for the more 'consumerist' attractions of the city (shopping, restaurants, theatre etc). The important thing is to do it 'big' and bold, with no half measures and to market it well.

I am therefore disappointed to see you revert to the "I have family" approach, as in I have family in New York who have been to Toronto once and will never come again. Shame.

LOL, Guilty as charged. Unfortunately I make the mistake that my personal experience is somehow a better gauge of reality than that of others